Help me understand

[Stiltzkin]

i'd like to know why god has children and generally good people
killed/murdered etc. Then I'd like to know why he decides
to keep the ones that commit these acts.

[Paul Wolfe]

i'd like to know why god has children and generally good people
killed/murdered etc. Then I'd like to know why he decides
to keep the ones that commit these acts.

Personally, I think your terminology is wrong. I don't believe God has anyone murdered. I believe that murder is allowed to happen so that those of us who remain can learn from the tragedy. Once the human race learns to not retaliate with violence when violence occurs, then we will be on our way to removing these tragedies from our world.

Violence is a lerned behavior and will take time to weed it out of society, but as generations grow up with less violence, they will beget more violence. As new generations are immersed in more violence - movies, games, nightly news, etc. - they will beget more violence.

God has given us the freedom to chose the behaviors we follow. It is our responsibility to learn from the actions of others and work to change this world.

[Stiltzkin]

i meant why God allows this sort of behaviour.
and what does mankind gain with god letting
the wrong-doers walk. why are they allowed to
live on while their victimes aren't?

the only thing I can think of is that by letting this
happen, mankind gains hatred towards eachother

[Paul Wolfe]

God allows it because He gave human's freedom of choice. We are free to choose our behavior rather than have God control our every move.

Now as far as mankind only gaining hatred towards one another, that depends on the way you choose to deal with the actions of others. For example, say someone kills someone you care about by being careless while flying a small plane in Florida. You could feel angry and full of hate towards that person, or you could feel bad that he didn't have a better life in which he learned the value of human life and learned to be careful at all times.

When something bad happens, the natural, initial reaction is anger. What seperates people is the way that they deal with that anger. I choose to pray for understanding as to why the event took place and to pray for the person who did the wrongdoing. I pray that God will present Himself to that person and change his heart. If I can be a vehicle for such change, that would always be a wonderful thing.

[Paul Wolfe]

By the way, thanks Joe, for allowing me to talk like this here. I was thrown out of another site for mentioning God...

[Stiltzkin]

I for one doesn't have anything against religious discussions.
It's good to hear other peoples value,
but although I respect it I won't agree

I do feel that people tend to use the name god
to excuse certain situations around the world, and I'm sick of it.

I'm sick of hearing that god meant for this or for that to be.

Take WWII for example.
There's no way a god would let the nazis kill so many people,
not to mention Stalin. He was probably worse then Hitler (but that's a completely different discussion).

[Paul Wolfe]

Okay, here's my take on World War Two, God did not cause it to happen, but He allowed it to happen. The reason He allowed it to happen is because of the freedom of choice He bestowed upon human beings.

If we did not have the freedom to choose our behaviours, then we would be puppets, not people. We have the right to choose to do whatever we want. Some choose good, some choose bad.

What is horribble about Hitler and Stalin is that everyone allowed them to do what they did because they didn't want to be involved. Worse yet, some people supported their ideas and actions. But if the bad things never happened, then no one would learn. You cannot fully appreciate health if you are never sick.

As I mentioned before, we all need to learn form the bad things in order to make the world a better place. It is our ability to choose that will allow the world to becom a better place. Martin Luther King chose to react to violence with peace and look what he accomplished. It is far easier to lash out and attack, but those who are willing to suffer for the greater good bring about the most change.

[Paul Wolfe]

Stiltzkin, the story of Corrie Ten Boom might be of interest to you. She lived through the holocaust and wrote a fascinating book entitled The Hiding Place.

One of the things that stands out in my mind from that book is when Corrie was complaining about the fleas in the barracks where she lived with her sister at Ravensbruck - a concentration camp. Her sister thanked God for the fleas, because it kept the Nazi guards away while they led Bible study. One sister thought the fleas were a curse, the other felt they were a blessing.

That is an example of choosing how you look at a situation and trying to find the good in everything that happens.

[Stiltzkin]

Okay, here's my take on World War Two, God did not cause it to happen, but He allowed it to happen. The reason He allowed it to happen is because of the freedom of choice

... but ...

the bible says that a certain snake gave freedom of choice
and god didn't like this so he banned certain folks from a certain paradise

what did the christians do when people chose other paths
than christianity? did they let them have their freedom of choice ?

my point is, as long as there is free will there wíll always
happen bad things and this wont stop until humanity is depleted.

[Trigger]

Okay, here's my take on World War Two, God did not cause it to happen, but He allowed it to happen. The reason He allowed it to happen is because of the freedom of choice He bestowed upon human beings

That still sounds vague to me, and i am not trying to sound picky.

[Paul Wolfe]

Okay, here's my take on World War Two, God did not cause it to happen, but He allowed it to happen. The reason He allowed it to happen is because of the freedom of choice He bestowed upon human beings

That still sounds vague to me, and i am not trying to sound picky.

It is vague, isn't it? But it is also accurate. Hitler caused WWII to take place in Europe, just as the attack at Pearl Harbor caused the USA to become involved. God did not say, "Hey, Adolf, go kill millions." Hitler chose to scapegoat the Jews and kill everyone whom he didn't deem worth.

The United States chose to sit back and watch, until Dec 7th, 1941. All freedom of choice issues.

Now, at any time prior, God could have changed the course of Hitler's life and he may have become an upstanding citizen. It was the circumstances and choices in his life that led him to where he is.

I am not condoning anything that happened, I am saying that God gave mankind an opportunity to stop everything that happened in that war and for a long time mankind chose to ignore it. It wasn't God's aloowing bad things that is so horrible, it is man's choice not to get involved that is the crime.

[The Flying Dutchman]

I believe their souls do not die, only their physical bodies. I believe their souls continue on the journey.

What about people with Alzheimer ?
They slowley lose their personatlity and in the end they are still here but only physical with almost no soul anymore, are they at a certain point already partly in heaven then?

[Paul Wolfe]

That is one of the great mysteries. Just because they cannot communicate with us on our plane, does that mean they are not able to communicate with God on a different plane that we do not know about?

I don't have an answer, only a belief.

[Trigger]

The United States chose to sit back and watch, until Dec 7th, 1941. All freedom of choice issues.

From a historic perspective and as a Britsh Europian, we Brits managed to keep the Third Reich away because we fought and had sea border with occupied Europe, But. I think politicaly the US was weak when it resisted joining WWII, we gave homes to all the Europian nationals who were able to get away from Nazi murder. We fought our Empire into bankrupcy to defeat the Nazi's and liberate the German people as well as all the people living under the imposed rule of the Third Reich and the Nazi's absolute power.
Not to join a world war that raged across the globe for 3 years because of freedom of choice was a weakness not a strengh. I remember reading a quote from the US government after they joined the war "We were shocked by this attack" SHOCKED!! shocked into a global war! how?
Our fault in the west during the 1920's and 30's was to be complicit in allowing the Third Reich to expand had we Russia, USA and the British Empire worked together then, it would have shown strengh. what we showed the Third Reich was that we were all cowards. That wasn't a weakness of God! it was poor politics ,and like God politics is based on faith, faith in principles and not on divine power.

[Paul Wolfe]

That wasn't a weakness of God! it was poor politics...

Exactly! Yet God gets blamed like that all the time.

the bible says that a certain snake gave freedom of choice
and god didn't like this so he banned certain folks from a certain paradise

No, the Bible says the snake tempted Eve with the apple. The one rule God had for Adam & Eve was "don't eat the fruit of that tree." He gave them the freedom to choose wheter to obide by that rule or to not obide by it. The snake tempted Eve and she chose not to obide. The consequence of that decision was to be removed from the garden. We'd still be there today had a different choice been made.

what did the christians do when people chose other paths
than christianity? did they let them have their freedom of choice ?

True Christians accept everyone and, yes, allow them to have the freedom to choose to follow Christ or choose not to follow Him. We feel it is our duty to give people the information needed to make an informed decision, the choice is up to you.

my point is, as long as there is free will there wíll always
happen bad things and this wont stop until humanity is depleted.

BUt doesn't free will mean we also have the choice to not do bad things in retalliation to bad things? When one side chooses good, it helps the other side see things differently. By doing this we can promote change.