The Religion, Atheism and Science Discussion

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

I found this link that dispels the common claims that Jesus was a re hash of old pagan myths-any thoughts?
http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-myth.html

Matt

[Tito]

thats a tough one matt...but very interesting!i think everything has been rewritten and totally ruined..i dont practice but i do believe in god..im catholic...i left the church more than 10 years ago when i started realising that most if not all people went to church not to worship but to gossip about what people wore and ah it just got gross for me..anyway i have my belief and i do not in any way contribute or believe in any religion whatsoever...thanks matt good topic mate!

[Gata]

Hi everybody.

I heard about this on the radio, watched it (fullscreen) and had to invite you to this journey as well. I guess this thread was a good place, whatever your belief about creation. The outcome is beautiful in any case...

http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/universe/

And Merry Christmas !

Pat

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

Thanks Pat for that and hi Tito

I have been laid up today as I have been under the weather but used the time to watch Richard Antenborough's Gandhi. I have been studying him and the film has blown me away.

I also couldn't help noticing how much of an influence Jesus was on him. Not the miraculous Jesus of the New Testament or the Jesus of the Virgin birth, but the rebel Jesus, who to not put a finer point on it, but was a huge pain in the backside to the authorities! Gandhi seemed most inspired by this passionate quest for non violent means to fight!

As many people are killed as if he fought but with the poignant addition of his fight being done by turning the other cheek. What an awesome man. He was said to consider himself a Christian, Jew, Muslim, and Hindu!

Matt

[ptate]

Hi everyone.

Only just noticed the thread and it looks great.

Don't know (in all the 42 pages of it) whether anyone has gone down this line, if so, sorry for repeating it.......

My father is Northern Irish and, as such, I was brought up with somewhat of a religious background, where christianity was taught as a truth, with the bible setting out the structure for life. Over the years, the intervention of faith in my life has resulted in various issues which got me thinking and debating my take on things.

As for religion, isn't it a means to and end? A way of devisively manipulating the mind and focussing people on a singular direction; which in many cases can be at the cost of others? We establish set criteria and, should you fail to meet them, you do not elicit the correct response and are deemed to be a failure.

Take for instance, the need of Pope Alexander II to sanction the crusades in order to claim the holy land and bring it into the hands of christianity.

The middle east has always been a hot spot for religious belief and the battle for truth in this context (I know, it isn't all about that- neither was N.Ireland!), the second world war brought religion to the fore with the anti-semantic atrocities. the UK had civil wars, brought about by changes in ruling masses that destroyed Protestant and Catholic bastions alike.

I have spent my adult life studying, both for pleasure and academia, chaos theory and cybernetics, along with other functional cycles that dictate facets of nature. Whilst my personal, religious beliefs are not for posting (I have my own ideas), I do think that the forcible, rigid nature of these systems that people hold dear have significant faults, primarily in the fact that there is limited room for "others". Read the bible and God teaches love, understanding and appreciation of your fellow man. There are wars, plagues and other unpleasantries in the book, but they feature as an vivid example of the results of failing to maintain peace and understanding.

As for the original idea that started this whole thread, Jesus may have visitied India as there are many similarities between their faiths and christianity, that may be directly attributable to the belief in one god, through physical manifiestation, or other means.

I hope they find proof of the existance of Jesus. They have tried through, amongst others, the spear (tip of the lance that opened Jesus' side on the cross), pieces of the cross, burial casket with his name engraved on it (faked), Dead Sea Scrolls and the well-known shroud of Turin. None of these have been conclusive.

Fantastic thread...........

[Paul Wolfe]

As for religion, isn't it a means to and end? A way of divisively manipulating the mind and focusing people on a singular direction; which in many cases can be at the cost of others? We establish set criteria and, should you fail to meet them, you do not elicit the correct response and are deemed to be a failure.

I believe that man uses religion to control others. You know the saying, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people,"? I think the same is true with religion, the religion isn't at fault, it is those who manipulate it for their own desires who bring about the negatives associated with religion.

Personally I believe in Jesus Christ, and it doesn't matter to me if man ever proves anything about Him. If their were proof, there'd be no need for faith.

I also believe that the other religions in the world are kept alive by people who do not believe in Jesus Christ. This is their prerogative and I don't find fault with them for their beliefs, I simply disagree with them when it comes to belief. Judaism predates Christianity and in fact Jesus was raised in a Jewish home. The Jewish nation has chosen to disbelieve that Jesus was sent to be their savior (in fact the Jewish clergy had him killed) and so Judaism is kept alive to this day awaiting the savior they were promised.

It is my understanding that Islam believes Jesus was one in a long line of prophets, chosen by God to convey His word to them. Furthermore, it is my understanding that Islam teaches that Judaism and Christianity predate modern Islam and that man corrupted the teachings of God so He chose the prophet Mohamed to give mankind the true teachings returned to their original state after centuries of corruption.

In all of the major religions of the world their seem to be sects which have decided that their way of believing is the "right" way. To me this is man corrupting things for his own personal desire.

Ultimately I believe that no one will know if they are right until their final day when they meet their maker. That is why religion is based on faith. For those who have no religion, I feel sad, because, to me the question is, if there is no heaven and no hell, if "this" is all there is and we all came to be in an accidental 'big bang' and evolved into what we are, then what is the point of life? There would be no point because it was all a random accident. If this is the case, why have morals? Why have rules? Rules must have consequences. Who decides what those consequences are and what do they base them on if there is no reason for us to be here in the first place?

[ptate]

I agree absolutely, religion is the carrier, not the disease....!!

Christianity, buddhism, sikh, muslim, hindu, jew, jedi.....what does it matter. The faith is in the hands of each of us and is not for debate, or criticism.

As a scientist and sceptic, my beliefs have to fit in with structure and proven theory. I am not an atheist, but my faith lies in the creator and truth behind the vision. For example, cybernetics is a system that defies the random event, meaning that life can be defined through basic rules, manipulated through formulaic constructs, i.e. to get to C, we have to start at A, then add B (our journey), meaning that C=A+B . You can increase the intensity and complexity of this formula to describe and dictate events. However, chaos randomises this and clear evidence shows that these pre-determined rules can be changed through the advent of exogenous variables.

In terms of religion, this seems a bit too structured and means that mankind doesn't have a reason for existence other than to breed. Yet, we search for the "meaning of life" and a reason for living as if there is one. Is there?

One of the darkest moments for me came when I had a dream that at the end of my life, all my friends, family and children would never be seen again, that all the love and time I had invested in them was a waste....!! Fuck, that was hard to digest, but it focusses you somewhat.

"Other religions", that phrase is somewhat of a staple of conflict (no offence- honestly). Are there any other religions, or do we just manifest our beliefs and create boundaries ourselves as a security blanket against the unknown?

In all of the major religions of the world their seem to be sects which have decided that their way of believing is the "right" way. To me this is man corrupting things for his own personal desire.

Absolutely right, by failing to accept and recognise other religions, aren't they just manipulating the cause to create a dictatorial hierarchy where the subjugation of rights becomes commonplace?

Where, why, when, how, whoever your maker is, you need to make peace with them as there is no greater guarantee in life other than that one day, you are going on another journey to see something.

As for rules, they lend credence to the animal world. All animals have a system of hierarchy that defines the leaders, pack and runts. It is the biological necessity to create better strains and develop beyond your ancestors. Rather than kill (some do..!), bite or maim each other for ownership. We developed a sense of decency (haha....) which restricted our system to one of ethics and communication, to reduce damage.

Whatever god exists and you believe in; it is not for that being to be forced upon others and have them submit to the associated constraints; if mankind does, we will fail and deserve to die.

God sacrificed his only son for the good of mankind, you've got to ask; would you???????????

Peace.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

Excellent post. After much struggling like a Eureka moment something clicked and after a feeling of genuine peace I became a Christian. In today's modern world I fear what the word Christian conjures up to most people. There is so much corruption in all religions.

Anyway I would recommend C.S Lewis' Mere Christianity. It is a great set of works.

Matt

[RR-ElectricAngel]

I think religion is used as a moral authority. While man can manipulate it so many ways it really is up to each individual what character flaws they need to work on. Why let a middle man get between you and your inner peace? Personally, I haven't found a religion that best describes what I believe about our existence. If all we do in this world is to get others to perceive us in some desired way then why go through all the trouble? Create the world like it should be rather than have artificial or learned social dynamics that you have to put up with your whole life. A lot of times I find myself saying out loud, "Geese, this is just plain childish." Man maybe learning to be humane by going through life's challenges but it is happening way too slowly. The human race hasn't figured out that going through the worst things in life may very well be caused by the fact that we are socialized to be disfunctional from birth. Think about it...

[NicDots]

Dweebshire brought up C.S. Lewis...speaking of the man, has anyone read the Problem of Pain? Fantastic!

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

Dweebshire brought up C.S. Lewis...speaking of the man, has anyone read the Problem of Pain? Fantastic!

Sorry I missed this; what is it about?

Matt

[Honey]

What a fascinating thread! I love to hear how other people think and why. I can't believe I'm fixing to post on this but it seems that everyone on here is respectful for the most part and open to diversity.
My family is from Denmark and we are for the most part, Lutheran. I am Lutheran and raise my children as such. However, my belief system is somewhat awkward for my sect. I truly, with every ounce of my being, believe each one of us is a child of God. We are all brothers and sisters in some sense of the word and we are to look out and take care of one another.
That being said, I know that my earthly father loved me more than his own life and would never do anything to risk my well-being. So if my 'earthly dad' loved me that much, the Bible teaches that God loves me 100 Xs more. Therefore, it makes no sense that my Father would gamble my soul with his arch-nemesis, Satan. I believe every single one of us is loved through the good and the bad. You are exactly where you need to be when God needs you there and there are no coincidences. To further the discussion, I find myself thinking that Jesus was God as was every other Prophet. God choose his place, time and image to adapt to the needs of that particular group.
I do not believe in hell. I do believe in different levels of ascension and I believe that everyone has a job to do here on Earth as well as in our true Home.

My love to every one of you

[highpriestess]

ahhhh. the thread that never dies. lol.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

What a fascinating thread! I love to hear how other people think and why. I can't believe I'm fixing to post on this but it seems that everyone on here is respectful for the most part and open to diversity.

Yes it is quite remarkable! I have only ever seen these type of threads turn into all out nasty fights in many places on the internet.

However, my belief system is somewhat awkward for my sect. I truly, with every ounce of my being, believe each one of us is a child of God. We are all brothers and sisters in some sense of the word

Cheers to that xxx

There is certainly much bigotry to be found in religion; with various sects so damned certain that there version of things is right - and everyone else's wrong! Jesus has become a a huge part of my life and that way is not my way one bit.

Matt

[Tito]

i agree matt!!!!!!!!