The Religion, Atheism and Science Discussion

shanic · Post by **shanic** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:00 am

I am just wondering does the bible say that the sun revolves around the earth. I would like to know it this is true or have I been misinformed.

It is the reasoning behind a question I have.

Surely a question I have can be no less civilised than anyone else’s? I do not see the reason to be warned of the civility of the conversation so far, as if by participating I would lower the tone. I don’t know if I should be offended or smile, ah fuck it I’m smiling anyway.

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:12 am

I think it's a valid question, personally.

The link I posted makes several references to Biblical passages that insinuate, yes, the sun revolves around the earth and the opposite...no, the earth revolves around the sun.

Logan · Post by **Logan** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:38 am

I have recently decided to leave Christianity because of what I found it to be lacking. It had nothing to do with compassion or love for your fellow man or anything like that. What I found it to be lacking was anything of reality I could cling to when it came to God. What is the difference between Zeus and the Judeo-Christian God? Christ too with the passing of time will find himself taking his place amongst the other myths of past civilizations.

The sour taste it left in my mouth was that I was supposed to accept that there was a guy (old of course and bearded, a very classical charecter) who lived "somewhere" else and put me here to live and prove myself to him that I was worth of living in his presence. What an absurdity!! IMHO.

As a father of two children I could never deny them a seat at my table because they "fell short" in some way.

I do still however belive in God but my definition has changed. God to me is the Universe in which we live. God is the laws that seem to govern our existence.

I am reading a book called the "Self-Aware Universe" that is facinating in it's introduction on Monistic reality. It is written by a Quantum Physicist who does a wonderful job at introducing us to the new developments in science and how it and mysticism in religions are really on par with each other.

The traditional view of God is an archetype so people could understand. Society does not have that type of mentality anymore and like wise people are rejecting it.

I think what matters most is not what God you pray to but how it makes you act towards yourself, your family, and your fellow man. These are the qualities that matter not what name you choose to call God. I honestly believe that in the end we all end up praying to the same thing.

Logan · Post by **Logan** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:40 am

Oh sorry I almost forgot thanks for the Link on Bruce Lee NIcDots!!!!

And Matt I think you are right that it takes a lifetime ti fathom that statement. I think that it will take LIFETIMES to incorporate it into ones being.

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:03 am

Logan wrote: These are the qualities that matter not what name you choose to call God. I honestly believe that in the end we all end up praying to the same thing.

I pretty much believe the same thing.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:54 am

shanic wrote:I am just wondering does the bible say that the sun revolves around the earth. I would like to know it this is true or have I been misinformed.

It is the reasoning behind a question I have.

Surely a question I have can be no less civilised than anyone else’s? I do not see the reason to be warned of the civility of the conversation so far, as if by participating I would lower the tone. I don’t know if I should be offended or smile, ah fuck it I’m smiling anyway.

Hi Shanic

Then as I said, please accept my apology. I must have misinterpreted the intention wrongly.

I think as it was late I thought it was a 'hit and run' snipe. Now I am smiling! LOL

Matt

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:00 am

ps interesting read Nicole, thanks

Matt

shanic · Post by **shanic** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:43 pm

No wucken forries Matt.

Thanks for the link NicDots, it goes part way to answering the question I have.

So the bible does not say as fact that the sun orbits the earth, the quotes in the article are observations by man. I was under the impression the bible was the word of god taken down by man. I am mistaken then.

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:49 am

Well some Christians believe that literally, others have a more lose interpretation of that. Christians can argue Biblical interpretations till the cows come home.

Post by **Stiltzkin** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:04 am

shanic wrote:No wucken forries Matt.I was under the impression the bible was the word of god taken down by man.

it's more like a collection of stories by men/women throughout
years and decades, where moral values and political views
have been added and subtracted during it's existence.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:16 am

Stiltzkin wrote:
shanic wrote:No wucken forries Matt.I was under the impression the bible was the word of god taken down by man.
it's more like a collection of stories by men/women throughout
years and decades, where moral values and political views
have been added and subtracted during it's existence.

Robin that is what I feel!

Re-The Bible

When I evaluate all I have read (and I think about it all the time as much as music), as much as I try, I cannot get past my mind and brain crying out "what you are examining is subjective and not absolute"

However, despite all I know (such as the similar stories of messiahs with almost identical life stories of Jesus etc) something about Jesus, the truth/fiction (it doesn't matter to me) touches me.

Matt

Post by **Trigger** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:39 am

Matthew wrote:
Stiltzkin wrote:
shanic wrote:No wucken forries Matt.I was under the impression the bible was the word of god taken down by man.
it's more like a collection of stories by men/women throughout
years and decades, where moral values and political views
have been added and subtracted during it's existence.
Robin that is what I feel!

Re-The Bible

When I evaluate all I have read (and I think about it all the time as much as music), as much as I try, I cannot get past my mind and brain crying out "what you are examining is subjective and not absolute"

However, despite all I know (such as the similar stories of messiahs with almost identical life stories of Jesus etc) something about Jesus, the truth/fiction (it doesn't matter to me) touches me.

Matt

I do fully agree with what was said by Robyn and Matt BUT

Matt don't you think that the link you feel to Jesus is because we are taught about Jesus's life and work from an early age? This way we have been readied to follow and understand the purity of the man and the stories behind him and the New Testament, had you come from The far east you might have had the exact same strengh of feelings towards The Budha or a Hindu god.
When I was in Palestine I did feel in a similer way about the land and the locations, I felt and still feel close to the land and its people. This is why I deeply feel the tragedies played out in such a wonderful place.

Ian

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:17 am

Hi Ian

Yes absolutely that is a possibility...well a high possibility!
I think just because we can be aware we are conditioned though, it doesn't necessarily change it's hold.
Richard Dawkins says much the same. If you are born into a Muslim culture you naturally feel that is THE way. If you are born into parts of Ireland you have an affinity with Catholicism etc etc.

So yes as humans we empathise with our cultures stories and traditions more etc.

I think what makes it not necessarily so is that Christainity places sacrifice as such a huge thing, it something I believe that resonates deeply within the collective consciousness of human beings.

I think the tragedy rises above the conditioning the same way a Shakespeare play may move a Japanese man/woman because it contains human truth.

Matt

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:22 pm

Richard Dawkins...The God Delusion, yes?

I went to a philosophy forum on my campus not too long ago, and all the philosophers, Christian/religious or no were not impressed with Dawkins and his reasoning. "Dawkins is a scientist, not a philosopher, and it shows in his book." God has nothing to do with science, so why would a scientist right a book to disprove God when he lacks sources or data to prove his hypothesis? No proof is not proof. Or as the philos say "no proof is not the same as proof." I suppose it is frustrating for scientists, but in order to disprove God, one could no longer really be a scientist because in order to disprove God, you'd have to go by clearly unscientific means.
.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:07 pm

NicDots wrote:Richard Dawkins...The God Delusion, yes?

I went to a philosophy forum on my campus not too long ago, and all the philosophers, Christian/religious or no were not impressed with Dawkins and his reasoning. "Dawkins is a scientist, not a philosopher, and it shows in his book." God has nothing to do with science, so why would a scientist right a book to disprove God when he lacks sources or data to prove his hypothesis? No proof is not proof. Or as the philos say "no proof is not the same as proof." I suppose it is frustrating for scientists, but in order to disprove God, one could no longer really be a scientist because in order to disprove God, you'd have to go by clearly unscientific means.
.

Interestingly and coincidentally I have been just discussing Dawkins in a rehearsal with our local vicar.

I was saying that what undermines his arguments is that despite being a self proclaimed humanist, he seems to relish the idea of someone with spiritual beliefs being crushed into submission.

My understanding of humanism would be that he would extend compassion to people he deems as deluded and offer his truth with a friendlier delivery.

However like I wrote earlier. The God Delusion is a great read and you are better for asking yourself some of the questions it poses.

Matt