20 elementary school children & 6 adults murdered in Conn

[RRFan4Ever]

I've grow so weary of the endless gun debate- it's senseless to even contemplate "control" given that it seems my country seems to have an infinite number of weapons. That and for some reason, we're given to violence- it's encouraged at many levels in our culture such as the media, movies, our homes, schools, churches and even the workplace now. I don't own a gun myself but I would be lying if I said that I haven't been considered buying one to arm myself against a sea of would-be assailants- that just so happen to be my fellow citizens.

I'm neither conservative nor liberal, but I do consider myself pro-common sense (and believe that voting straight party either way is a fallacy) I try to avoid news and the media in general because it's upsetting, mindless filler that's usually built upon ill informed opinions, half truths and innuendo. But I couldn't help but tune in today.

What does it take for people to stop arguing- and start looking for an answer to stop gun violence??

We can't blame the media for reporting it (despite the "monkey see, monkey do" theory, which actually holds some merit) but I do believe that there is an epidemic of illogical, mentally unbalanced narcissists who have easy access to guns- and that the consequences that we see (such as today, and last month, and the month before that and so on) will continue to ensue.

When will both sides of the gun debate come together and say enough is ENOUGH?

Not even the NRA can say that today could have been avoided if only the students had been packing heat, as they once did with college campus shootings. Obviously, the shooter was mentally ill- and more than likely we're going to hear if there were any red flags in the past. That may give us some indication about why this particular shooter went off the deep end and robbed 20 families of their children. And people (for some reason) seem to be content to contemplate that one person and what led to their breaking point- but no one seems interested in examining how many guns are in our country.

If there was a problem with 84 year old women driving into packed grocery stores due to a faulty replacement hip- or eye glasses, or because they melted their genitalia off with searing hot coffee- we would be hearing about accountability. We may even begin demanding it.

And we often hear about liability in the news, past and present- from asbestos to silicone breast implants to vehicles recalls- but guns are exempted and no one asks questions- why?! There was even a case involving Mercury Marine Motors suing China for "dumping" their boat motors in the US at an unfair price thus trying to monopolize the market- but no one dares to ask about gun makers and their products.

But how would anyone know for sure just how many guns and by how many makers are already here- let alone are currently for sale- if we don't talk about it fairly or respectfully? Screw the permits and licensing and background checks- and let's see the numbers because I believe that is what we are up against. And screw the catchphrases on both sides of this debate- what will it take to make people think for themselves? How many more elementary students will be murdered- before both sides come together and demand change and accountability?


No, guns don't shoot people- people shoot people, but where are people getting the guns from? How many guns do we need?



http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/14/sh ... ?hpt=hp_t1

[RRFan4Ever]

And I thought I'd share a brief sampling of some of the comments congesting the internet. Obviously each person has their unique perspective however objective and incoherent it may be- catchphrases and mysterious sources are the first thing people are turning to- usually in defense of the gun industry.

As one reader put it- "why are there any crimes occurring if your guns are a deterrent?" Sadly, no one even responded to him. And even worse- not that many readers of the link mentioned the children- or did so in passing.

The gun didn't shoot itself. Had the school officials been armed and "Right To Carry" signs up, the gunman, who was familiar with the scene, may not have done this. We need to allow guns in the hands of more responsible adults at these schools so guys like this can be taken out quickly and stop killing of kids. Praise the NRA and their efforts to arm more of society! Countries with mandatory gun ownership, do not have these problems. Liberal countries and liberal thought causes the people to go without protection and this is what happens.

You can ban all the guns and assault weapons in the world. This guy still would have gotten one. MOre carrying of weapons and this goes away. Guns are the deterrant, not the problem.

Finally, God is taking His hedge of prtoection off this country. As we kick God's name out of schools, buildings, no prayer in school, no bibles, He is saying ok--you get what you ask for. Gay marriage, and abortion for all, and no God or Jesus in the schools. It is going to get worse as we get rid of Christ more and more.

Secular humanism and macroevolution teach "survival of the fittest", so I suppose we are glad when the Supreme Court ruled against the posting of the 10 Commandments in schools, including Thou Shalt Not Murder (a better translation than "Kill") because the kids might not just look at it but might obey it!

Boy, have we lost our moral compass!

A solution: On school district level (never federal), schools may choose teacher(s) as armed security guards. They must be trained, certified, and bluh, bluh, bluh. Schools must have security systems in place to alert about these attacks and training similar to fire drills. Schools should be locked down during sessions and only authorized personnel and cleared parents may enter. - unfortunately this is new reality of our society.

I'm sick about the events in Connecticut today. I have grandchildren in the age group of those taken by this sick individual and I grieve for the parents who have lost their young.

Guns have been a part of our American culture since it's founding, but mass killings are something new. I believe they are a reflection of the deterioration of our society, the family unit, respect for traditional values, etc., than they are reflective of the availability of guns.

One thing's for sure...today's events will become a clarion call for more stringent gun regulation, which is exactly the wrong idea. There should be more emphasis on fixing what's wrong with our society and it's values than fixating on the method by which the dearth of those values reap their vengeance on all of us, particularly the innocent.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. I saw a stat somewhere that said, according to FBI, more people are killed by baseball bats than guns.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/18-chi ... siteid=rss

I didn't bother to google "baseball bat deaths" or even "sports related fatalities" because I'd LOL if this wasn't such a sad day. Photos and video of worried and emotional parents remind me, this could happen again, at any time- anywhere. And people seem to accept this as some kind of trade off for their ability to have a hunting rifle or whatnot.

For some reason I suspect that the media will be late or not specify the other weapons involved in this massacre- I'm thinking that whatever a .223 Bushmaster is, it had something to do with killing 20 innocent children in a rapid succession accurately. I've seen reports that only 3 survivors made it to the hospital. 3. That's it.

... and of course, it wouldn't be news without streaming video of blood soaked children and wailing, hysterical parents to peruse while reading comments such as the garbage I've posted above.

Meanwhile, Ford Motor Company is defending itself against a probe into 480,000 floor boards. Seriously.

(Reuters) - U.S. safety regulators broadened a more than two-year probe into the possibility of unintended acceleration in about 480,000 Ford Motor Co (F.N) sedans when floor mats are unsecured or stacked.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/18-chi ... siteid=rss

[randy will never die]

RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP RIP

THE SAD PART IS THAT THEY WERE ARE ALL CHILDREN

[RRFan4Ever]

I was pretty pissed off when I wrote this, but I'm beginning to think that the shooter (20 years old) was just a victim of gun culture, too. Some neighbors and family members have made mention that Adam Lanza's mother was "strict" and that he wasn't "attached to others" and that she may have been "too hard on him" and "required good grades" -- couple all that with the fact that the parents divorced 3 years ago, and the father and older brother haven't spoken with the shooter in "2 years" and the mother wasn't employed evidently. Wow, just wow.

[The Flying Dutchman]

What a tragedy....
I heard his mother was a 'gun' fan and took him to shoot lessons. She was the very first one to be killed by one of her own guns.... How can it come so far

[Stiltzkin]

How can it come so far

god knows. as long as it's approved by law, every american can buy a weapon
with little to no backgroundcheck or training. the pro-guns solution? easy,
arm the teachers

[camdenlp]

just heard a verified story on the news about a little girl that hid among her dead classmates. she was the only 1 in her class to survive. she was also the first 1 rescued from the scene, covered in the blood of her fellow first graders. her first words to her mother was ”mommy I'm okay, but all of my friends are dead”...

what a twisted world we live in

[rice_pudding]

It seems sad that once again certain voices in the media are turning towards blaming video games, rather than considering the true root of massacres like this one. I guess that would take too much effort... Sometimes it seems like the public conciousness, and politic are wilfully inert at efforts to break this seemingly endless cycle of violence.

Rob

[oth]

As far as video game violence, i have read were they say they had no influence.Especially since these games were popular in scandinavia and they dont have much violence there.Kinda surprised me.I dont get why gun clips for all guns cant be limited to 6rounds-see im not taking your gun away

[RRFan4Ever]

Maybe they are trying to circumvent the possible laziness of their clients? I wouldn't know but I suspect that loading and reloading guns can be a pain in the ass- especially when a lunatic wants to mow down as many helpless victims as possible.

The more guns that are in our country- the more they will be used. These headlines are the consequence of that. Just like global agriculture and capitalism are the biggest culprits in world hunger- but the media will do anything it can to make to point the finger everywhere else- other than where it belongs. Well, there are other issues that contribute to hunger- but they also pale in comparison.

There are more restrictions placed on a teddy bear marketed for children under 3 than there are to purchase a firearm. Three day waits, background checks, permits and etc don't do shit cos it only affects law abiding citizens. And all that red tape is cut away at gun shows, rummage, estate and personal sales- we don't really even need a "black market".

I can't think of any other object or thing that could compare to what the US is experiencing with this crisis. What if cars were just as easily available and difficult to trace and we had people running amok with them all over? What if there was an infinite amount of narcotics suddenly made available over the counter- with little to no oversight? Look at what happened when people began to share files over the internet- thus negating record companies, etc. . . . it took awhile but eventually the powers that be assembled laws and the technology to trace "offenders" for pirating.

I just don't see anything meaningful happening to protect children in schools from guns. The most asnine thing I heard, and I have issues even regurgitating this horseshit in a sarcastic manner- is that "guns-free school zones" are now "killing zones". I didn't think the gun lobby would go there, but they did. Somehow, according to their il/logic- we need guns in gun free school zones because the criminals are now capitalizing upon students made vulnerable by laws that protect them.

WTF?!

[illiterate bastard]

is that "guns-free school zones" are now "killing zones". I didn't think the gun lobby would go there, but they did. Somehow, according to their il/logic- we need guns in gun free school zones because the criminals are now capitalizing upon students made vulnerable by laws that protect them.

WTF?!

Let me ask you this... If you were a criminal with ill intent, where would you rather do your dirt? In a place where you're pretty much assured that you're going to be the only one with a gun (gun free zone), or someplace where there might be someone else.. say a concealed carry permit holder, that would pop your sorry azz in a second to protect themself and the people around them?

It's hard for the "law abiding" mind to conceive of the breaking of a law. Our brains aren't wired that way, we find it un-natural and it goes against our moral compass. Many people who are "law abiding" citizens have a hard time believing that if a new law is passed, that it won't be obeyed by everyone. Unfortunately, criminals don't have that problem. That is why stricter gun control laws will only hurt the law abiding citizens, both those that want guns and those that don't.

There is a thing going around the internet right now that says something along the lines of this:

You may not like guns, that is your right.. You many not believe in God, that is also your right.. But when someone breaks into your house at 3am, you're going to do two things: (1) Call someone with a gun.. and (2) Pray they get there in time.

Guns are inanimate objects that can only do one of two things.. Function or Fail

The rest is up to the heart and/or mind of the person wielding it.

[RRFan4Ever]

I don't know that many criminals, but I would assume that they have no interest in a school zone. Again, I'm assuming here- that your average non-law abiding citizen wouldn't dare shoot up a school. The lowest of the low are the ones that mess with kids, don't believe me- you can watch any reality program on tv right now and it comes up continually that even the "worst offenders" respect kids, elderly, and oftentimes animals.

What other crimes are there to commit in schools then? Drugs? There are enhancers in sentencing that frighten off even the most hardened "crackhead" when they are even within 2,000 feet of a school. SO that must mean that kids have something of value that a petty thief (unlikely to be armed) would want, right? Not really, I'm not aware of elementary school students regularly carrying cash or anything else of value.

I think the argument is apples and oranges because we aren't talking about criminals but a younger person with severe mental issues that carry out these horrible atrocities.

[illiterate bastard]

I don't know that many criminals, but I would assume that they have no interest in a school zone. Again, I'm assuming here- that your average non-law abiding citizen wouldn't dare shoot up a school. The lowest of the low are the ones that mess with kids, don't believe me- you can watch any reality program on tv right now and it comes up continually that even the "worst offenders" respect kids, elderly, and oftentimes animals.

Are you implying that I do know a lot of criminals? Also, you keep saying school zone.. I'm talking about gun free zones. Yes, school zones are "gun free zones" but they are not the only places considered to be a "gun free zone". Any place that prohibits by law the use or possesion of a firearm is considered a gun free zone. This could include your local movie theater, shopping mall, etc. The places that you or I could frequent at any time of the day or evening. Most states have some form of regulation on the books stating what type of signage needs to be placed within a prescribed distance of all entrances to a given location stating that the place in question is a "gun free zone". Meaning that the use or possesion of a firearm is prohibited in that location. In some states, these signs carry the force of law.. In others they do not. It's up to the individual to know the specific regulations for the state in which they reside, or plan to visit. My point is the posting of a sign saying "No firearms allowed" is like an invitation for somone that means to do harm because they know there won't be anyone there to contest them.

With regard to "reality tv"... Not trying to be rude, but if you base your "facts" off what you see on reality tv, then you need to pull your head out.

What other crimes are there to commit in schools then? Drugs? There are enhancers in sentencing that frighten off even the most hardened "crackhead" when they are even within 2,000 feet of a school. SO that must mean that kids have something of value that a petty thief (unlikely to be armed) would want, right? Not really, I'm not aware of elementary school students regularly carrying cash or anything else of value.

While I agree with you that it takes a special kind of psycho to shoot up a school, movie theater, mall, etc.. It still happens, as we've all so unfortunately seen. Sure, there are different levels of "criminal" and probably the majority of criminals don't have any desire to do something so horrible as a mass killing. But there are some that will do exactly that, and then there are some that would be content to walk into your local convenience store and shoot a clerk over $50 that was in the cash register. It's not a mass shooting, but a life (or lives) could be lost just the same. Is one any more criminal that the other? I just don't understand why the anti-gun element find it so repulsive to have armed guards at schools. I could just about guarantee you that the majority of children of our politicians have armed guards at the schools they attend, but yet that's ok. I truly believe it's a sad day and time we live in when we feel that a possible answer to the problem is to have armed guards at every school, but if that's what it takes to save a life.. Why not?

I think the argument is apples and oranges because we aren't talking about criminals but a younger person with severe mental issues that carry out these horrible atrocities.

So, the guy that shot up the school in Newtown wasn't a criminal? Just because he might have had mental issues doesn't absolve him of being a criminal. He broke several laws that day before he ever got to the school, not the least of which was murdering his mother. I'm sorry, but that arguement doesn't hold water with me.

[RRFan4Ever]

I may know one or two people that have broken the law- not in my immediate circle of friends or family, and I'm far from the only one- so what of it?

I do know a thing or two about the hyperbole surrounding this issue (on both sides) and regardless of whether I support guns (I actually do, I've grown up with them) I'd be an idiot to ignore the logic that the more guns we have, the more often they are used. Yes, it's people pulling the trigger, we're all well aware of that by now.

Fact of the matter is that no matter how anyone tries to instill logic in this situation, people are always trying to argue and make implications where there were none. I started this thread about a school shooting, in a school. Yes, I was talking about gun free school zones, and I apologize for thinking you were too, however it's interesting that I hadn't thought of post offices, court houses, police stations, grocery stores, and churches as being magnets for criminal activity.

Now, let's look at these school zones and gun free zones- do you have any stats and sources to back up the argument that criminals are attracted to them as much as is implied? Because I don't believe you. And I'm not even close to being a criminal. I'm f*cking sick to death of this issue. The same people that complain about "american jobs" usually don't bother with logistics when they buy their precious sig or glock. And gun manufacturers are dumping their product anywhere they can because it makes them money, especially anytime people fear for their right to bear arms.

[RRFan4Ever]

So, the guy that shot up the school in Newtown wasn't a criminal? Just because he might have had mental issues doesn't absolve him of being a criminal. He broke several laws that day before he ever got to the school, not the least of which was murdering his mother. I'm sorry, but that arguement doesn't hold water with me.

Ok, let's pretend that the shooter received help in a timely fashion- would he have still committed the crime? Or, if the shooter had lived- would he have been found competent to stand trial?

Are you saying that the mentally imbalanced kids and young adults that have committed these crimes are of sound mind when they massacre innocent victims in what's supposed to be a safe place?

I'm sorry, not all crimes are the same, hence how sentencing varies (or is supposed to) in this country. Not only that, courts still recognize the insanity plea in many instances.

I think that mental health has a huge role in how these scenarios play out. If the shooters were indeed in their right mind, most of these instances wouldn't have occurred. Whereas, your average thief or pusher does what they do with the knowledge that one day it will catch up to them, but when a mass killer intent upon carnage walks into their crime- it becomes their destiny, they either know or don't care that it's likely they will be shot.

Yes, apples and oranges.