Ok,
I know I may be stepping on some toes here. Although I invite you into an open debate, we're all intelligent enough to engage in conversation like this, without resorting to cheap shots. There are members here who have their own political opinions and I don't want this thread to turn into a political hate thread!
You may or may not know, Anjem Choudary (leader of Islam4UK) has just announced that his group will march through Wootton Bassett. The place where thousands of people honour soldiers who have passed away overseas. He has also enraged people by sending letters to families to soldiers saying their son's/daughters 'died in vain' and compared the soldiers to Nazi's. Islam4UK is an organization that would like to implement Sharia law in the UK.
The EDL (English Defence League) is a group formed last year. Their aim is to fight Islamic extremism. They have marched in numerous towns and appear to have dates set for future protests (including one in my own town, Stoke, lovingly named by Nick Griffin as “jewel in the crown of the BNP"....... could have done without that one Nick!). They have clashed with several anti-racist organizations. Although they have been called a racist organization, several pictures seem to suggest they have members from different faiths along with African-British members. However, they also have a core of BNP supporters which seems to throw a slight spanner into that argument... The BNP have distanced themselves from the EDL.
Unite Against Fascism is a state funded organization (originally formed by Ken Livingstone) thats primary aim is to stop the rise of the BNP in the UK. They have clashed with the EDL at numerous protests and are often in attendance at EDL demos. They also have their own protests which generally revolve around the activities of the BNP. They have a large support from students and are heavily promoted within universities and colleges. They're website keeps regular tabs on BNP and EDL activities and keeps readers updated with demos and protests.
As it is, the general consensus seems to be that the march will be cancelled through fears of public safety. I myself believe this is the best course of action. If this march goes ahead, things will possibly turn violent and they will definitely not be alone in Wootton Bassett that day. Sadly, I don't think this is the end of this.
I don't agree with the BNP, and I am not saying that Islam4UK's freedom of speech should be taken away, but lets not forget the EDL have had their own marches banned through fear of public safety. Is this no different? If anything, it would be more dangerous to let this one go ahead, than to have let the EDL's march in Luton go ahead.
My opinions on UAF are well known, as I don't agree with certain 'tactics' used by their followers. I'm not saying their cause isn't justified, but I'm saying their methods are wrong. Violence and the oppression of free speech is wrong (a tactic willingly used by UAF). The UAF was a group started with good intentions, but bad leadership and hateful messages on their websites has promoted the concept that violence is okay against those who don't agree and support.
Islam4UK, EDL, UAF, Wootton Bassett etc
Moderators: Randy Perry, The Flying Dutchman, Stiltzkin, skezza, Trigger
I don't see a problem with a March in Wootan Basset because I have not met or had dealings with any Islamic groups that promote race hate.
I was at the huge demo in London that opposed the Iraq invasion and when millions of us made sure that our government knew, we, the British population had said NO! to War in our name in Iraq outside our Parliament building then had cheek to ignore our wishes I realised that in the coming years we would see more marches and that 'US' the population were going to raise some difficult issues for which ever Government in power has to deal with.
I think while we have public outporings of grief for the wasted lives of young soldiers in politicaly motivated wars, we will have to face up to many people wishing to grieve the lives of the 100.000's of inocent victims taken in these hostilities.
As a dispiser of the ultra right and all those little groups who hide there racism by advertising the fact they also have a few non white members (very few indeed). I have sadly come to realise that this pathetic series of Wars have given any tin pot bunch of racsist and nationalists the excuse to gather and spout nonsense. This slippery slope started when 2% of the entire population gatered in London to say no, and at the same time many others gathered across the nation to stand in solidarity with those of us who made our way to the capital. The act of going against our wishes started what we are seeing now because the ultra right can now claim that there thinly veiled racsism is actually them being politicaly active and caring.
Are they fuck! its politicaly naieve thugs tricking idiots, that isnt an achievement its like shooting fish in a barrel.
I was at the huge demo in London that opposed the Iraq invasion and when millions of us made sure that our government knew, we, the British population had said NO! to War in our name in Iraq outside our Parliament building then had cheek to ignore our wishes I realised that in the coming years we would see more marches and that 'US' the population were going to raise some difficult issues for which ever Government in power has to deal with.
I think while we have public outporings of grief for the wasted lives of young soldiers in politicaly motivated wars, we will have to face up to many people wishing to grieve the lives of the 100.000's of inocent victims taken in these hostilities.
As a dispiser of the ultra right and all those little groups who hide there racism by advertising the fact they also have a few non white members (very few indeed). I have sadly come to realise that this pathetic series of Wars have given any tin pot bunch of racsist and nationalists the excuse to gather and spout nonsense. This slippery slope started when 2% of the entire population gatered in London to say no, and at the same time many others gathered across the nation to stand in solidarity with those of us who made our way to the capital. The act of going against our wishes started what we are seeing now because the ultra right can now claim that there thinly veiled racsism is actually them being politicaly active and caring.
Are they fuck! its politicaly naieve thugs tricking idiots, that isnt an achievement its like shooting fish in a barrel.
Cologne she'll wear silver and americard, She'll drive a beetle car and beat you down at cool Canasta. And when the clothes are strewn don't be afraid of the room touch the fullness of her breast feel the love of her caress she will be your living end.
Ian, I enjoyed your post. What I do think is that many of these people feel just as passionate about their own feelings as you do about yours. It is easy for them to call you wrong and justify it, and it is easy for you to call them wrong equally justify it. For me, it would be dangerous for Islam4UK to march through Wootton Bassett. The surrounding areas are very military (big army camps) and I wouldn't be surprised if soldiers on their day off turned up. They have their own right to protest, just like Islam4UK. The sad thing about the Iraq war, is that while thousands were against, thousands were for it Ian. Which means, although argument of 'we the British public said No", in reality it is just a percentage of the British public. I don't like to call the deaths of soldiers 'wasted lives'. I have plenty friends out there and it worries me to think they are in danger.
The other point is this, while the BNP has an extremely small minority of non-white members, the EDL has a much larger amount. Several photos seem to suggest that the EDL have quite a diverse group, even if a large amount of their members are BNP (Something which I'd never have predicted). I am not in support of the EDL, sadly, too many of their arguments are an 'idea' wrapped in racism, but I am not willing to support UAF either. The other thing is, surely if Islam4UK are allowed to march, the EDL will have free right to march anywhere? Do we want that? Does this not pose an imminent threat of public danger?
The other point is this, while the BNP has an extremely small minority of non-white members, the EDL has a much larger amount. Several photos seem to suggest that the EDL have quite a diverse group, even if a large amount of their members are BNP (Something which I'd never have predicted). I am not in support of the EDL, sadly, too many of their arguments are an 'idea' wrapped in racism, but I am not willing to support UAF either. The other thing is, surely if Islam4UK are allowed to march, the EDL will have free right to march anywhere? Do we want that? Does this not pose an imminent threat of public danger?
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The Flying Dutchman
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Re: Islam4UK, EDL, UAF, Wootton Bassett etc
To me this comes over as plain provocation..... So I think it should not be allowed. (if not I fear for all kind of problems, from what I read) And in the same way I don't think we should allow a march from anti-moslism groups in Mekka either. That would be plain provocation too.skezza wrote:You may or may not know, Anjem Choudary (leader of Islam4UK) has just announced that his group will march through Wootton Bassett. The place where thousands of people honour soldiers who have passed away overseas.
btw This reminds me a bit about that crap in Ireland, the endless provactions between Catholics and protestants and their marches........ Nobody should want that
The winner of the rat race is still a rat.
I fully agree with you Joe and I say wasted lives because they were tragicaly cut short, and when we marched against the Iraq war it wwas because we felt the reasons to go to war were based on lies and sadly for those who died, we were proved correct the 45 minute warning was a lie as were WMD's.
I realise that the military camps in the Wooton Bassett area make this march difficult but I see no alternative because to deny it would be a provocation for all minority groups or groups who oppose the the status quo.
I wonder if many of these non white members who are part of the group you mentioned are driven by political motivations, motivasions that are anti Islamic and born out of local disputes in other parts of the world?
Patrick
One thing that has always surprised me in Holland, your ultra right wing nationalist party not only has non Dutch members but was also until his murder, fronted by an openly gay leader.
In Britain I could never imagine this happening, I think the Netherlands does its extremes with much more thought and less unpleasentness.
I realise that the military camps in the Wooton Bassett area make this march difficult but I see no alternative because to deny it would be a provocation for all minority groups or groups who oppose the the status quo.
I wonder if many of these non white members who are part of the group you mentioned are driven by political motivations, motivasions that are anti Islamic and born out of local disputes in other parts of the world?
Patrick
One thing that has always surprised me in Holland, your ultra right wing nationalist party not only has non Dutch members but was also until his murder, fronted by an openly gay leader.
In Britain I could never imagine this happening, I think the Netherlands does its extremes with much more thought and less unpleasentness.
Cologne she'll wear silver and americard, She'll drive a beetle car and beat you down at cool Canasta. And when the clothes are strewn don't be afraid of the room touch the fullness of her breast feel the love of her caress she will be your living end.
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The Flying Dutchman
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You mean the murder on Pim Fortuyn?Trigger wrote:One thing that has always surprised me in Holland, your ultra right wing nationalist party not only has non Dutch members but was also until his murder, fronted by an openly gay leader.
In Britain I could never imagine this happening, I think the Netherlands does its extremes with much more thought and less unpleasentness.
To me he wasn't right wing, also not left wing. He was right and left at the same time!
About those groups who want the Sharia:
Yes we we have freedom of speech and they make use of it for their own agenda, TILL they succeed and then there will be no freedom of speech anymore other ('non sharia') people can rely on. So sometimes one have to violate the freedom of speech to defend it!
It's not always easy....
The winner of the rat race is still a rat.
But Ian, are you saying that if this march in Wootton Bassett is allowed to go ahead, then any future marches by the EDL (a similar minority group, just a different agenda) should be allowed? We can't ban free speech, but we can't allow danger. If the government thinks that the EDL marching in Luton is dangerous, then they're insane if they don't think this march is dangerous. I mean, the EDL is a tiny organization that receives a tiny response. I'm talking maybe a thousand people. If Islam4UK go to Wootton Bassett, there will be thousands more, and a lot more violence.Trigger wrote:I fully agree with you Joe and I say wasted lives because they were tragicaly cut short, and when we marched against the Iraq war it wwas because we felt the reasons to go to war were based on lies and sadly for those who died, we were proved correct the 45 minute warning was a lie as were WMD's.
I realise that the military camps in the Wooton Bassett area make this march difficult but I see no alternative because to deny it would be a provocation for all minority groups or groups who oppose the the status quo.
I wonder if many of these non white members who are part of the group you mentioned are driven by political motivations, motivasions that are anti Islamic and born out of local disputes in other parts of the world?
Pat
Yes it was him Pat but here he was portrayed as a right winger.
Joe
I do understand your concern but Pandoras box is now open and I don't see that we can easily close it again.
Yes it was him Pat but here he was portrayed as a right winger.
Joe
I do understand your concern but Pandoras box is now open and I don't see that we can easily close it again.
Cologne she'll wear silver and americard, She'll drive a beetle car and beat you down at cool Canasta. And when the clothes are strewn don't be afraid of the room touch the fullness of her breast feel the love of her caress she will be your living end.
Well Ian, if they let this march go ahead, the repercussions will be huge in my opinion. It will be a thumbs up for other organizations to do the same. It will simply result in more violence, more marches and no actual results. The EDL will argue, if they're allowed to march, then so are EDL. The EDL have already been banned from protesting in Luton, due to fears of public safety. If the government bottle it on this one, then the EDL will have one up, as they will always be able to play this card.Trigger wrote:Joe
I do understand your concern but Pandoras box is now open and I don't see that we can easily close it again.
Not only that Ian, I actually would be fearful for my muslim mates at Uni and around my hometown if this march went ahead. They're only Moderate Muslims and they know themselves, that shit will hit the fan if this march goes ahead. It will be another, right, stay in the house day for them, because Islam4UK in my opinion, doesn't represent the opinion of the majority of muslims.
Hello Joe
I am sure that what you are saying is correct and I am certain you are more aware of the specifics in this case than me.
What I am concentraing on the basic right to gather because a few years ago the laws were changed and it made Political gathering all but ilegal in Britain under anti terror legislation, though I understand legislation designed to protect it also removed a right we had to make our feelings felt.
When you talk about very real fears I believe you are correct to fear them and like you I would oppose the far right and its ability to gather.
I am just pointing out that after the Pandora's box (of ignoring popular feelings) was opened, closing it on any anti war related subject will be difficult.
When I was young extremist marches were common and most ended with no violence and most atracted no real publicity. What you are now seeing for the first time is protests that have a real hardcore and most of which have a lineage that can be followed all the way back to those anti-war protests that preceded the Iraq war of regime change. I am certain the WB march wont take place if it is felt that the march is a direct provocation because of the anti gathering legislation.
I remember you asked me about these two groups on the telephone a while ago because they concerned you and appart from very basic differences and easy to spot racial contexts thta thhese groups gather under, I am not as clear about thier motives as you are and to be fare to you I should study them further so i can better speak about them, but my basic point remains that us British should be able to gather to demonstrate our political beliefs and this denial of them under law can only lead to a more politicaly ignorant and uninterested populace. This will undermine democracy here and lead to politicians who are able to do as they wish un chalanged.
I am sure that what you are saying is correct and I am certain you are more aware of the specifics in this case than me.
What I am concentraing on the basic right to gather because a few years ago the laws were changed and it made Political gathering all but ilegal in Britain under anti terror legislation, though I understand legislation designed to protect it also removed a right we had to make our feelings felt.
When you talk about very real fears I believe you are correct to fear them and like you I would oppose the far right and its ability to gather.
I am just pointing out that after the Pandora's box (of ignoring popular feelings) was opened, closing it on any anti war related subject will be difficult.
When I was young extremist marches were common and most ended with no violence and most atracted no real publicity. What you are now seeing for the first time is protests that have a real hardcore and most of which have a lineage that can be followed all the way back to those anti-war protests that preceded the Iraq war of regime change. I am certain the WB march wont take place if it is felt that the march is a direct provocation because of the anti gathering legislation.
I remember you asked me about these two groups on the telephone a while ago because they concerned you and appart from very basic differences and easy to spot racial contexts thta thhese groups gather under, I am not as clear about thier motives as you are and to be fare to you I should study them further so i can better speak about them, but my basic point remains that us British should be able to gather to demonstrate our political beliefs and this denial of them under law can only lead to a more politicaly ignorant and uninterested populace. This will undermine democracy here and lead to politicians who are able to do as they wish un chalanged.
Cologne she'll wear silver and americard, She'll drive a beetle car and beat you down at cool Canasta. And when the clothes are strewn don't be afraid of the room touch the fullness of her breast feel the love of her caress she will be your living end.
Agreed. I would have absolutely agreed had the EDL Luton protest gone ahead, but it didn't. Which means, if the Islam4UK march goes ahead, you get one set of rules for one, and one for the other, and that will give all groups a free reign to protest, march and cause havvoc whenever. They will always be able to (illegally?) ignore refusals to protest on the grounds that Islam4UK had their march. I would be pretty fearful in Anjem Choudary's. I very much doubt he will turn up, because his life will be in so much danger. I must say Ian, that I think he is completely wrong to want Sharia law implemented in this country, especially as this is a secular society which has had its own laws and rules for 100's of years and they've been generally successful in keeping the peace. At no point, has our country been in anarchy. At no point, have people feared for their lives in this country (Excluding WWI, WWII). Places like Somalia, where government is pretty much a myth, have it much worse.
The weird thing for me Joe is that I often speak to Muslims who hold what some may feel are fundamental views yet none of them wish to see a Sharia state in Britain or a greater spread of Islam within Europe, They only hope to get a greater understanding of what Islam is and the intertwined history of all the monathaeistic faiths.
I see that states who have Sharia as a law and system of governance are not as happy with it as some would have us believe.
I do feel that we all should try to understand more about Islam and its branches to help us have a greater understanding of how complex media dogma is distorting the real issues.
I see that states who have Sharia as a law and system of governance are not as happy with it as some would have us believe.
I do feel that we all should try to understand more about Islam and its branches to help us have a greater understanding of how complex media dogma is distorting the real issues.
Cologne she'll wear silver and americard, She'll drive a beetle car and beat you down at cool Canasta. And when the clothes are strewn don't be afraid of the room touch the fullness of her breast feel the love of her caress she will be your living end.
these islamic extremists should be deported to china and see how they like living in a nation where they cant enjoy freedoms.In fact if they hate the west shouldnt they be rushing to get back to their homeland?Religion makes you go nuts and delusional and elitist etc.I abhor religious institutions.I think the way they treat women is retarded and a joke.The sharia crap should be condemed as savage and outlawed.No excuses.The islamic protest over cartoons about mohammad should be ridiculed ad nauseam.Dont like free press-go live in a country that doesnt have free press-any middle east kingdom country.I cannot understand why these anti west people are not called out as a holes and asked to go home?Dont like freedom,get lost.I am apalled by the amount of nonsense that comes from christian propagandists as well.That influence has been extremely detrimental to the usa as well.Both of these religions and their retarded philosophies and myth have had a hugely negative impact on our lives in the last 50yrs and more.
Strangely enough how many westerners have been killed by islamic nuts VS the hundreds of thousands of islamic people killed by the west/christian nations in iraq alone.It makes you pause if you think about it.
Western foreign policy has shaped the middle east very poorly in the last century.Most policy is designed to benefit western nations not the citizenry there.
Strangely enough how many westerners have been killed by islamic nuts VS the hundreds of thousands of islamic people killed by the west/christian nations in iraq alone.It makes you pause if you think about it.
Western foreign policy has shaped the middle east very poorly in the last century.Most policy is designed to benefit western nations not the citizenry there.
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GUITARIDOL5682
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Over the years the UK has let more and more people come into this country. I feel that the UK is becoming more racist on the facts that we have allowed 1000's+ of people into the country and we cannot look after the people who live here. By opening up this door and giving these people free hand outs i.e homes, jobs, cars and benefits. When the general public on low wages cannot support a family. The job and unemployment situation plus the recession which isn't getting any better. Our government are a bunch of pure jokers considering that the country is on its arse. Never mind giving Islam UK a march in an area which is totaly loyal to the soldiers fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. The prime minister has said this will not happen. I remember the so called peaceful march in London when the council tax came about, it turned into a total riot. The BNP who get called everything from Nazis to racists but the country has the right to vote and i can see why more people are joining the BNP. This is becoming a country who don't give a fuck about the British citizen. So for every soldier who dies fighting in either Afghanistan or Iraq this is only breeding more hate for Muslim Islam even if these people are British and have lived in this country all their lives. Plus the terrorism attacks on the UK which just adds extra fuel to the fire.
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rice_pudding
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I just don't understand why anyone would want to live under a religious system of governance. It would instantly exclude, possibly to the point of death depending on the nation, anyone who is not muslim/christian/hindu etc.Trigger wrote:The weird thing for me Joe is that I often speak to Muslims who hold what some may feel are fundamental views yet none of them wish to see a Sharia state in Britain or a greater spread of Islam within Europe, They only hope to get a greater understanding of what Islam is and the intertwined history of all the monathaeistic faiths.
I see that states who have Sharia as a law and system of governance are not as happy with it as some would have us believe.
I do feel that we all should try to understand more about Islam and its branches to help us have a greater understanding of how complex media dogma is distorting the real issues.
But likewise i don't understand why anyone would want to impose religion on others.
In any case our curent systems of government in the west are already out of date why would we want something even more out dated
Rob