Time will tell but from experience I can say people worst fears didn't happen here.cableguyxx wrote:Free housing, free food, free cell phones and now free health care. What a wonderful placeTrigger wrote:Fantastic news indeed for the poor and tiredLets all hold hands and sing a chorus of John Lennon's "Imagine".
They've said it will save billions. What a complete crock of shit. Government programs are well known for being extremely underestimated in initial cost projections. "In 1966 the Democrats told us that Medicare would cost us $9 billion a year by 1990. What was the actual tab? Try $110 billion a year." Dumping 16 million people into Medicade, an already poorly run and expensive system accompanied by long waits and poor service should be great! It's pretty well known that people that already have health insurance will continue to see their premiums increase, regardless of the fairy tales the politicians are spewing. It makes no sense to think they are going to add that many people into the system and not have it cost more. The states and doctors are screwed as they are responsible for these medicade payments, which the federal government is infamous for underpaying. States will have to cut other services to make up the difference, so already tight budgets will only get worse. Look for deeper education cuts to pay for this at the minimum.
into further debt. I think most US citizens would agree that there was a need for some sort of reform. There are some good ideas in the bill, but at what price? I'd like a nicer stuff too, but if I can't afford it, I can't have it. The government doesn't have to worry about that kind of stuff. Just raise taxes. If the government would crack down on fraud and wasteful spending I would be excited about this, but they won't. They continue to spend money they do not have, be it on the wars, bailouts or entitlement programs and continue to put it on the backs of the people.Trigger wrote:This was a great leap forwards
Health Insurance Bill
Moderators: Randy Perry, The Flying Dutchman, Stiltzkin, skezza, Trigger
Cologne she'll wear silver and americard, She'll drive a beetle car and beat you down at cool Canasta. And when the clothes are strewn don't be afraid of the room touch the fullness of her breast feel the love of her caress she will be your living end.
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cableguyxx
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Cpt Matt Sparrow
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LMAO I didn't see that coming Darin!cableguyxx wrote:Fantastic news indeed for the poor and tired. Free housing, free food, free cell phones and now free health care. What a wonderful place
Matt
Having a break from online activity for a while to concentrate on music. Please email if you need to get in touch. Matt
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cableguyxx
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Sorry Mattasaraus 
I'm wearing my pessimistic sunglasses this morning.
Our government keeps expanding what "poor" is and keeps expanding how they are taken care of. If you want to get by with basics (and often more) you only need to do nothing to help yourself and our wonderful government will sweep right in and take care of you...I mean, the people who actually pay taxes will do that. The government doesn't actually 'make' money, aside from printing it, borrowing it or taxing it. I do feel for the true poor who are that way do to unfortunate situations, and they should be helped. I however feel no compassion what so ever for a good portion of people that these terms cover, as it is a result of their own poor choices and lack of desire to better themselves. These type of people take away funds that would and should otherwise go to the people who really need help. Personal responsibility is a thing of the past.
I'm wearing my pessimistic sunglasses this morning.Our government keeps expanding what "poor" is and keeps expanding how they are taken care of. If you want to get by with basics (and often more) you only need to do nothing to help yourself and our wonderful government will sweep right in and take care of you...I mean, the people who actually pay taxes will do that. The government doesn't actually 'make' money, aside from printing it, borrowing it or taxing it. I do feel for the true poor who are that way do to unfortunate situations, and they should be helped. I however feel no compassion what so ever for a good portion of people that these terms cover, as it is a result of their own poor choices and lack of desire to better themselves. These type of people take away funds that would and should otherwise go to the people who really need help. Personal responsibility is a thing of the past.
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Cpt Matt Sparrow
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cableguyxx
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Cpt Matt Sparrow
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As I understand it (from over here) it is passed but a few minor details remain to be finalised before it is implamented.NicDots wrote:It's not set in stone yet, is it? Don't the electorate have to vote on it?
Cologne she'll wear silver and americard, She'll drive a beetle car and beat you down at cool Canasta. And when the clothes are strewn don't be afraid of the room touch the fullness of her breast feel the love of her caress she will be your living end.
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Cpt Matt Sparrow
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Re The British National health service. Well in regards to this, I admittedly do know not any different and it works well! Life is hard enough already without having to worry about that.
However, nationally and internationally I am skeptical too about everything being free.
A different analogy, but I will tell you one thing to do with teaching guitar in schools over the years. The vast majority of pupils who opt for lessons because they qualify (as the parents are unemployed/income support) treat the lessons so casually and indifferently often taking up the space of people who are further down the waiting list who are willing to pay.
They opt for it because it is free and miss lessons regularly, do not practice etc etc.
The parents often complain If they actually have to buy some sheet music.
On the reverse I have taught people on the poverty line who just about can afford to pay for their lessons and you know they not only respect the lessons and the need to focus, but also are doing it because they really want to. In turn I will always go the extra mile for them too.
The bottom line I suppose is that respect is often lost with a freebee. It is not always good for people.
Matt
However, nationally and internationally I am skeptical too about everything being free.
A different analogy, but I will tell you one thing to do with teaching guitar in schools over the years. The vast majority of pupils who opt for lessons because they qualify (as the parents are unemployed/income support) treat the lessons so casually and indifferently often taking up the space of people who are further down the waiting list who are willing to pay.
They opt for it because it is free and miss lessons regularly, do not practice etc etc.
The parents often complain If they actually have to buy some sheet music.
On the reverse I have taught people on the poverty line who just about can afford to pay for their lessons and you know they not only respect the lessons and the need to focus, but also are doing it because they really want to. In turn I will always go the extra mile for them too.
The bottom line I suppose is that respect is often lost with a freebee. It is not always good for people.
Matt
Having a break from online activity for a while to concentrate on music. Please email if you need to get in touch. Matt
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cableguyxx
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Matt you are dead on. I have real issue with this leveling the playing field for the "less fortunate". The house/neighborhood I grew up in was a dump, but my parents sacrificed so I could improve myself. Most all my friends had similar situations, in fact, many, many Americans have similar situations. Many of the people around us however, did not take this route, and they went about status quo. It was readily evident almost every time we went to the market(years worth of trips), there would be someone in line paying for most of their grocery staples with food stamps(and later a government issued food card) and then a second payment for cigarettes, alcohol and other non essentials. This happened on a regular basis, not every once in a while. Inevitably you would finish your check out and head out to your car, only to see these people loading their government gotten goods into their luxury SUV, and that is no exaggeration. These people were almost always better dressed than you could afford to be. Fraud. Plain and simple. Can't say a thing about it either because if you do your a r-a-c-i-s-t or s-e-l-f-i-s-h-
When we were first starting out we bought a small home. My wife and I both worked full time, while my son was in child care. We lived there for quite a few years and liked our neighborhood, which was quite diverse. Then, my neighbors to the immediate left of us, decided to move out and rent their house Section 8 (government assisted housing). That was the beginning of the end to that nice little neighborhood. Within 2 months of them moving into this nice 2 story house (with a pool) the house was a wreck. Weeds a foot high in the front where a nice manicured lawn use to be. Screens from the upstairs windows laying on the ground. The once nice pool was no greenish/brown with a plastic chair floating in it. Trash everywhere. Kids sitting on the roof above the garage yelling at everyone that passed(I'm surprised we were even able to sell the place). What a reward it was every day after working 9 hours and comutting another hour each way to work to come home to that shithole next door, knowing that those lazy assholes got to sit on their asses all day and do nothing but watch tv in a nice house that, even working two decent paying jobs, we could not afford ourselves We paid about $900(monthly) for our smaller home. The nighbors rented their home for $1500 to Section 8. The government covered $1300 of that. That's right, she paid a mere $200 of her own money a month to ruin our neighborhood. Ah the American way. That was the first house that went Section 8, but within months, there were dozens that did the same thing in that neighborhood alone. We finally moved a ways away, but in less than 4 years at the new location we could see it just continuing to spread. It's disgusting and frustrating to people who work hard for what they have, only to be labeled selfish and racist by bleeding hearts who want to make sure everyone has an equal opportunity. This is exactly the kind of crap that goes on in the name of helping the "less fortunate" and ruins it for the people that truly need it. It's also why so many working Americans are fed the flip up with paying for this type of "social justice". I'm sure Section 8, just like many other social programs were started with good intentions, and have helped honest people. The problem is you cannot help those who do not want help. You are only enabling their shitty attitude on life. Without real oversight and regulation on ANY social program (which the government simply does not do, or at least does not do even remotely well) our tax dollars are wasted. Our hard work is wasted. Our own lifestyles are compromised to enable another's lack of effort.
Back to healthcare: kudos to the Dems for pushing to get some sort of needed change, and shame on the Repubs for not taking the lead on this issue a while back, BUT big SHAME on the Dems for pushing through this shitty bill without bipartisan and majority public support. IMO this was not the way to do this. I hope I'm wrong about what the ultimate outcome will mean. Given the fact that that biotch Pelousy has espoused the virtues of this bill, comparing it to the bloated and broke Social Security and Medicare systems as if they were great successes, I have serious doubts.
When we were first starting out we bought a small home. My wife and I both worked full time, while my son was in child care. We lived there for quite a few years and liked our neighborhood, which was quite diverse. Then, my neighbors to the immediate left of us, decided to move out and rent their house Section 8 (government assisted housing). That was the beginning of the end to that nice little neighborhood. Within 2 months of them moving into this nice 2 story house (with a pool) the house was a wreck. Weeds a foot high in the front where a nice manicured lawn use to be. Screens from the upstairs windows laying on the ground. The once nice pool was no greenish/brown with a plastic chair floating in it. Trash everywhere. Kids sitting on the roof above the garage yelling at everyone that passed(I'm surprised we were even able to sell the place). What a reward it was every day after working 9 hours and comutting another hour each way to work to come home to that shithole next door, knowing that those lazy assholes got to sit on their asses all day and do nothing but watch tv in a nice house that, even working two decent paying jobs, we could not afford ourselves
We paid about $900(monthly) for our smaller home. The nighbors rented their home for $1500 to Section 8. The government covered $1300 of that. That's right, she paid a mere $200 of her own money a month to ruin our neighborhood. Ah the American way. That was the first house that went Section 8, but within months, there were dozens that did the same thing in that neighborhood alone. We finally moved a ways away, but in less than 4 years at the new location we could see it just continuing to spread. It's disgusting and frustrating to people who work hard for what they have, only to be labeled selfish and racist by bleeding hearts who want to make sure everyone has an equal opportunity. This is exactly the kind of crap that goes on in the name of helping the "less fortunate" and ruins it for the people that truly need it. It's also why so many working Americans are fed the flip up with paying for this type of "social justice". I'm sure Section 8, just like many other social programs were started with good intentions, and have helped honest people. The problem is you cannot help those who do not want help. You are only enabling their shitty attitude on life. Without real oversight and regulation on ANY social program (which the government simply does not do, or at least does not do even remotely well) our tax dollars are wasted. Our hard work is wasted. Our own lifestyles are compromised to enable another's lack of effort.Back to healthcare: kudos to the Dems for pushing to get some sort of needed change, and shame on the Repubs for not taking the lead on this issue a while back, BUT big SHAME on the Dems for pushing through this shitty bill without bipartisan and majority public support. IMO this was not the way to do this. I hope I'm wrong about what the ultimate outcome will mean. Given the fact that that biotch Pelousy has espoused the virtues of this bill, comparing it to the bloated and broke Social Security and Medicare systems as if they were great successes, I have serious doubts.
I see things similer to those you quote here Darin, as you know I am from the left wing in British politics a Socialist, not to be confused with Comunism which doesn't relate to me or any other British Socialist, as a free market business man Socialist.
The reason that we see things like this here is that the right wing doesnt wish to make major changes to social support because it would lose vital votes and the left won't because the left is factional, and very diverse, the left splinters because we support more and varied causes.
However giving free (at the point of use) healthcare for all doesn't effect anyone and gives no bonus to the less desirable elements of British society. I agree we should reform certain area's of support but we also need to identify those who need help and will prosper with help.
What you said Darin raises so many different issues that we need to revive the Politics thread
I conratulate the US for gaining a service that we here in Europe enjoy, I can only imagine how much better off your parent might have been Darin when you a child if they had had free at the point of use health care.
The reason that we see things like this here is that the right wing doesnt wish to make major changes to social support because it would lose vital votes and the left won't because the left is factional, and very diverse, the left splinters because we support more and varied causes.
However giving free (at the point of use) healthcare for all doesn't effect anyone and gives no bonus to the less desirable elements of British society. I agree we should reform certain area's of support but we also need to identify those who need help and will prosper with help.
What you said Darin raises so many different issues that we need to revive the Politics thread
I conratulate the US for gaining a service that we here in Europe enjoy, I can only imagine how much better off your parent might have been Darin when you a child if they had had free at the point of use health care.
Cologne she'll wear silver and americard, She'll drive a beetle car and beat you down at cool Canasta. And when the clothes are strewn don't be afraid of the room touch the fullness of her breast feel the love of her caress she will be your living end.
I was hoping I was through with this thread but I have to reply to something Ian said, you congratulated us on gaining a service that you in Europe enjoy, but as I read this bill I do not get the impression that what we will be getting is anything at all like what you have. Also, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, but our government was set up to be "by the people", "for the people", our government in this case did not vote the will of it's people, it will be very interesting in November when "the people" in our country have our say on our "new and improved" healthcare system. And believe you me, the votes cast in November will be a direct reflection on how people feel about this and several other issues in this country. Ian I have nothing but respect for you, you are a first class individual, but the U.S.A. will never be Europe, be that a good or bad thing (and I'm not saying it's either). As always, just my thoughts on the subject, please, take them as such.
Ted
Ted
"The Only Two Things In Life That Make It Worth Livin"
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Cpt Matt Sparrow
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Hi Ted, funny enough I was speaking to Ian about what you just said (on the phone on the way to the gym LOL). My view has been altered somewhat. While I appeciate the Uk and the USA have a historical and genetic connection I think despite our this, our respective natures are very different in regards to the state, guns, religion and many other things.
I don't think one way is THE way, but that America adopting a more European way, will ultimately make it or break it
Matt
I don't think one way is THE way, but that America adopting a more European way, will ultimately make it or break it
Matt
Last edited by Cpt Matt Sparrow on Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Having a break from online activity for a while to concentrate on music. Please email if you need to get in touch. Matt
Thats OK Ted, I think the coming months will be very interesting indeed for those of us interested in Politics. I think this is the begining not the end and yes I can see it isn't like the services we have over here. BUT, I think it will develop like ours is/has medical services and administering tham change because without change they would stagnate and be inefective.
I found 'by the people for the people' an interesting idea because it could be said that they are the people and they are doing it for the people, as I aid this whole suject needs time for hindsight to set in but the final theme of this plan could be extremely effective.
I found 'by the people for the people' an interesting idea because it could be said that they are the people and they are doing it for the people, as I aid this whole suject needs time for hindsight to set in but the final theme of this plan could be extremely effective.
Cologne she'll wear silver and americard, She'll drive a beetle car and beat you down at cool Canasta. And when the clothes are strewn don't be afraid of the room touch the fullness of her breast feel the love of her caress she will be your living end.