Bin Laden

[The Flying Dutchman]

I have not read this topic so if what I say is just repeating somebody else I am sorry about that.

What has disapointed me with the BL news is that he was subject of a 'kill' type order! I can see that people will be celebrating his ultimate demise and lets be fare if he was responsible for what happened in NY in 2001 those who died at his organisation hands never got a 'life or death' choice either.
But us western nations have prospered and developed on principles of law and order, not always as idealy as we would like, but when a criminal action is carried out we capture the criminal and those who made the crime possible and put them on trial and let the letter of the law be followed.
I read it suggested that this would lead to his place of burial being made into a martyrs shrine which I can imagine might be the case, but many of the same things were said about Saddam but he was taken alive, charged, put on trial, had a verdict passed, appealed the verdict, was excecuted and buried. All of this was done in front of the camera and though I thought telivising his execution was tastless I don't see why or how it was different for Bin Laden.

The first reports I heard was that he was to be taken dead, than I heard that he died because he resisted which is a contradiction, yes he deserved to face full retribution for his wicked crimes against (crimes against humanity), but a trial would have been in line with all our collective national principles. And the irony for him as he faced those who's lives were changed forever would be that he got what his actions denied his own victims.
The outcome would have been the same taken alive or dead, people would have been able to gather, get drunk, wave flags and whoop! but had he been put on trial the American public could have celebrated the capture and then his ultimate demise! two celebrations and brisk trade for flag sellers and bar owners during these hard economic times.

Are you for real?

Yikes!

100% incorrect on all counts.

Zero evidence has been shown that Bin Laden is indeed killed.

FACT.

QUESTION: how much 'crap' those celebrating people can take from their government?

[RhoadsRockPhotographer]

Zero evidence has been shown that Bin Laden is indeed killed.

FACT.

QUESTION: how much 'crap' those celebrating people can take from their government?

Is the moon made of cheese?

Do you have any ACTUAL evidence it's not?

NO ... YOU DON'T.

FACT.

(Just as ridiculous a supposition.)

Ask Bin Laden's daughter how well he survived his head shot.

People "celebrating" in New York (mostly) is a TINY number of people of the total U.S. population.

It doesn't even register on the radar, it's so tiny a number.

That's like mischaracterizing the majority of the UK population as "soccer hooligans."

(It's not football.)

[The Flying Dutchman]

Zero evidence has been shown that Bin Laden is indeed killed.

FACT.

QUESTION: how much 'crap' those celebrating people can take from their government?

Is the moon made of cheese?

Do you have any ACTUAL evidence it's not?

NO ... YOU DON'T.

FACT.

(Just as ridiculous a supposition.)

Ask Bin Laden's daughter how well he survived his head shot.

Wait a minute, who's comming with a story here?
Not me!

FACT.

(shouldn't they back it up?)

[Trigger]

Zero evidence has been shown that Bin Laden is indeed killed.

FACT.

QUESTION: how much 'crap' those celebrating people can take from their government?

Is the moon made of cheese?

Do you have any ACTUAL evidence it's not?

NO ... YOU DON'T.

FACT.

(Just as ridiculous a supposition.)

Ask Bin Laden's daughter how well he survived his head shot.

I am quiet certain we have proof that the moon isnt made of cheese! but to hold back on photographic evidence makes no sense, if they are not given because they fear that his supporters would target the West because of the images then it is as likely we would be targeted due to his death at our hands.

[Axian]

I think even if the photo was released their would still be tons of speculation on whether it was actually bin laden, I mean know one has actually seen him since those pictures back 10 years ago and longer and apparently one of his eyes had come out.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

I think even if the photo was released their would still be tons of speculation on whether it was actually bin laden

Yes that is very true. That is the suspicious nature of people of our time. We live in a world now, where as ordinary citizens,we expect to be privy to the same information as even our very leaders - and often when we are shown the information, we still feel there is a a secret and evil agenda.

I don't think we can judge in the comfort of out warm homes, what the circumstances of the Seals raiding Bin Laden's home were. Like I said previously, a known terrorist and a very dangerous one at that, a night time raid under a limited time schedule etc, it would make the situation very precarious...they took a split second decision...

A great quote was just on tele, that echoed my thought on Bin liden, was the he was described not as a Dr No type evil mastermind, but a "dangerous idiot"
That is how I will remember him...

Matt

[RhoadsRockPhotographer]

to hold back on photographic evidence makes no sense, if they are not given because they fear that his supporters would target the West because of the images then it is as likely we would be targeted due to his death at our hands.

It's not his current "supporters" that are the issue. We're already targeted (the entire West, not just U.S.) because we are the non-muslim "infidels."

He's dead. We know it. Al-qaeda knows it. That's all that matters.

We don't need any additional ammunition to "whip up" the ignorants they recruit for suicide-bombings, etc.

Your life isn't on the line because you aren't in the line of fire.

If you truly choose to be in denial, that's your prerogative and still perfectly legal.

A photo isn't going to help towards "proving" anything.







When is the last time a Western country claimed to (positively and with 100% certainty) kill someone they hadn't?

Take your time .... I'll wait.

[Trigger]

RRP, Sorry I was away working, I don't really understand the point you are making? or how that changes anything that has been stated by anyone here.

[oth]

Killing obl was the only option.Imagine the circus it would have been holding trials and all the terror threats to the US if obl was held captive.WTF would a trial prove anyway.It would shed nothing new.I think his death is as welcome as hitlers or idi amin etc.
If you look at the history of saudi arabia and our involvement there things become more clear as to his motives. A kingdom that is supported militarily by the west,gives its oil that supplies the wests prosperity but doesnt share the prosperity with its own populace and suppresses them.I mean the USA had a revolution over simple taxes.Is it any wonder why they want revolution.Sadly theyve mixed religion into it.
The real education the western population needs is to get acquainted and learn about our foreign affairs policy and why we have a 'entitlement constitution" that dictates that we rob poorer nations of their valuable resources and make sure they dont resist by installing a dictator that is paid off by the west. That is what the entire mideast and south america is.Its a farce that the west is now supporting all these opposition groups in egypt,yemen etc because we are the ones who installed these dictators in the first place.
The chinese are now now buying up africa having learned from the west how to play the game.

[oth]

Question the BC?Only a moron would.Especially since his birth was written up in the hawaiin papers 50 yrs ago-can these wackos explain how that happened without a time machine?Boohoo!

you can never be more than 99% sure that the source is correct. Q: Where is this newspaper now? A: online and analogue archives.
Q: Is that hard to fake? A: I won't bore you with an answer.


Personally, I believe there is no such thing as the absolute truth.

You can neither prove nor disprove Obama's nationality with 100% certainty. In the face of overwhelming evidence Obama could simply deny the charges. And we would be back into 99% territory. Believe it or not their are 'rulebooks' used by groups like the CIA that dictate misinformation techniques. Techniques used for political, corporate, military or personal gain. You can even buy books published by individuals who use them.


Rob

When facing a preponderance of evidence why do people want to discount fact and embrace ignorance?

the newspaper is in hawaii?they reported the moon landing also just like the LA Times did.But whats the difference?Must you do carbon dating on the actual newspaper to validate the existence of an article-that it was actually printed in the first place?This is a nonsensical demand.
Obama's bc is as legit as ronald reagans or clintons ...or is there another standard for theirs?

how did u come up with the 99% theory?
yes there is absolute truth
if you step in front of a train going 80mph you will die 100% of the time.
The moon landing was real.

I can also garanty you with more certainty that obama was born in the usa than the sun will rise tomorrow.

But this isnt the issue right?Why does obama's bc get scrutinized and undergo a witch hunt of sorts and not one other candidate or politician has?Gee,cuz he s black perhaps?Hell john mccain really wasnt born in the usa and no demand for his bc?I mean, he ran for pres against obama and he gets a pass?Oh yeah,i forgot he s white.

If you look really close at obamas long form bc you can see a map of kenya and some quotes from the koran which proves he wasnt born in the usa and is muslim.

[Trigger]

Why is it that when some people are faced with a topic and they dislike people’s opinions they decide to resort to sarcasm, silly photographs or rolling eye smiley’s? Words will do and sensible questions should be asked of those whose opinions differ from yours!
What fascinates me is how when a subject carries so much heat some will resort to the lowest common denominator? Embrace differing views, I know I do, that way it helps give foundations to personal beliefs and aids the ability to stimulate independent thinking.

This subject has been one of the most intriguing from a psychological position, but please refrain from silliness when commenting and maintain respect for others, treat those who see things/decisions differently to you with grace and respect, treat them as you would wish to be treated it really is easier than resorting to childish flippancies and assists debate.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

Why is it that when some people are faced with a topic and they dislike people’s opinions they decide to resort to sarcasm, silly photographs or rolling eye smiley’s? Words will do and sensible questions should be asked of those whose opinions differ from yours!

Despite our differing views on this and a load of other stuff, I have to say I agree with Ian on this whole heartedly. It is a too common and much over used device posting 'comedy' pictures to discredit others on an internet forum. They do this at some of the other forums I visit like Gibson USA too - and it always makes me feel the same...

Nothing beats good old words! i.e a good argument and being decent. (A bit of humour thrown in too never goes a miss : )

Matt

[The Flying Dutchman]

Why is it that when some people are faced with a topic and they dislike people’s opinions they decide to resort to sarcasm, silly photographs or rolling eye smiley’s? Words will do and sensible questions should be asked of those whose opinions differ from yours!
What fascinates me is how when a subject carries so much heat some will resort to the lowest common denominator? Embrace differing views, I know I do, that way it helps give foundations to personal beliefs and aids the ability to stimulate independent thinking.

This subject has been one of the most intriguing from a psychological position, but please refrain from silliness when commenting and maintain respect for others, treat those who see things/decisions differently to you with grace and respect, treat them as you would wish to be treated it really is easier than resorting to childish flippancies and assists debate.

+1
Very silly response indeed......

Back to topic:

Has BL been killed?
My honest answer: I don't know...... Maybe he is, maybe he is not, maybe he was already dead for years? He hasn't been seen for years really.
(yes the US government says so, but show no evidence..... and they don't even try....)

I assume nothing, and I don't bother the world with a strange story like this, but one thing I can say is this:
Zero evidence has been shown that BL has been killed indeed.

Fact remains. (if people like it or not...)

[RhoadsRockPhotographer]

Why is it that when some people are faced with a topic and they dislike people’s opinions they decide to resort to sarcasm, silly photographs or rolling eye smiley’s? Words will do and sensible questions should be asked of those whose opinions differ from yours!.

When is the last time a Western country claimed to (positively and with 100% certainty) kill someone they hadn't?

Take your time .... I'll wait.

You conveniently failed to answer my question, above.

There was no sarcasm, silly photographs or rolling eye smilies in my reply.

It's funny how I answered your question (as to WHY NOT release photos), above, yet you chose to see it as "sarcasm and silly pictures."

"Truthers" choose to believe that American Airlines Flight 77 didn't, in fact, hit the Pentagon - despite multiple photos, hundreds (if not thousands) of eyewitnesses and emergency responders able to confirm otherwise.

A photograph isn't "proof-positive." There will still be an army of deniers.

(Sarcastic comment removed for the sake of decency, Trigger)

[rice_pudding]

oth,

I'll say it again, I've no interest in Obama's BC, all i know of the controversy is what has been posted in this topic. Yeah, a lot of people hate the black dude, and i'm glad to see you and many others passionately supporting him.

how did u come up with the 99% theory?
yes there is absolute truth
if you step in front of a train going 80mph you will die 100% of the time.

You're thinking in terms of locality. Yes, if i stick my head under a waterfall i will get wet 100% of the time. I'm talking about the communication of information. Call it Chinese whispers if you want. Consider different witnesses at the scene of a crime; will their stories tie up? No, there will be discrepancy in the exact time, speed and nature of events. If you want to go really extreme then take general relativity, which dictates we all experience life differently from our own perspective and each perspective is equally valid, even if they contradict.

Restrict the argument to an individual; Even if someone has a perfect memory and can recall frame by frame, -like a film, every sight, sound, smell, the exact expression on the criminals face. How does that person communicate that knowledge. Even if the witness picks his words carefully, the policemen will inherently contaminate the information by placing different emphasis on certain words based on his own experience. By the notes he writes on his pad, omitting certain info in favor of what he deems more important.

"the women was aggressively knocked to the ground" that could mean any number of things?
Was she 'pushed' to the ground. Or did they just accidentally collide in an 'aggressive' fashion.

Everyone's use of language is slightly different and i'm sure we've all had difficulty in the past explaining an experience to someone, even to a trusted friend; they just keep ending up at the wrong conclusion. etc. How often do we say 'hate' when we mean 'dislike', different meaning no?

These are extreme examples, and not the best, based on perfect circumstance. But in the face of tackling your "absolute truth" maybe necessary.

When facing a preponderance of evidence why do people want to discount fact and embrace ignorance?

the newspaper is in hawaii?they reported the moon landing also just like the LA Times did.But whats the difference?Must you do carbon dating on the actual newspaper to validate the existence of an article-that it was actually printed in the first place?This is a nonsensical demand.

Yes it is a nonsensical demand. Completely. But why do we place 100% faith in certain sources and not others. History always discounts certain documents, quotes etc. as lies/incorrect. But then revisionists come along and completely change everything.

In a courtroom, you assume everything is reliable evidence because everyone is under oath. In reality that means fuck all. Someone could lie for any number of reasons or make up any story they like. If you don't have correlating evidence to contradict it you can never discount it. You can never trust a source 100%, in some rare circumstance yes, but in the general bounds of the real world not really. No one on this message board is ever going to get their hands on Obama's birth certificate. So why evaluate something you can't measure? I don't see why 99% is a problem anyway. It's good enough for quantum physics! Like it or not all historical/political debate is based on skewing the margins. If i told you that i am 99% sure Obama is American would you still be offended? Would you consider me ignorant for only being 99% sure?

In any case, my point was simply how theories are self enveloping and as such can never be proved true or false, no one has to like it but there is a certain undeniable logic to it.

This is my opinion and my way of looking at things.

Rob