The Religion, Atheism and Science Discussion

frank · Post by **frank** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:55 pm

good point nicole. i find atheism, particularly the virulent variety dawkins practices, rather curious. how can you hate something that simply doesn't exist? true, there is plenty to criticize about what evil has been done in Gods name. but what about soup kitchens and midnight missions? what about the millions of good people living quiet righteous lives?

by the same token, i do not find science and faith incompatible. they both operate under the assumption that there is an order and reason to this universe.

i think the conflict comes from trying to make science and religion one and the same. or pitting them against each other.

frank.

siro_angel · Post by **siro_angel** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:23 pm

When it comes to me, i'm not an atheist lol, i believe something is out there, but we won't know for certian till we do die!

Simon

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:07 am

NicDots wrote:
Matthew wrote:Science and religion are incompatible.
Well DUH. Not to you Matt, but Dawkins.
If they are incompatible, why do so many atheists insist on disproving religion with something that is no way compatible with it?
You wouldn't do a Proof Problem in Geometry by assessing the number of vowels!
Anyway, if atheists cling so firmly to science and logic, they shouldn't be atheists at all. They should have arrived at the conclusion of "Who knows? I've never died and have never seen what happens next."
Some will come up with "Where's the proof for God? There is no proof, therefore there is no God."
No proof is not proof. They are nowhere near the same thing.
The reason why I have trouble respecting atheism is that their rules are fine for them, but not other religions. Atheists can claim their is no God without proof but religions can NOT claim their IS a God without proof?

Wow! Last sentence especially is a fantastic point!!

Matt

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:46 am

ps

re the dead sea scrolls.

I must do some more reading. An article I found does refer to a 'slain messiah'..the controversy in my book about the Dead Sea Scrolls is that there are some things that sugest this is not Jesus.

Damn it!! I wish everything was recorded more consistently and clearly 2000 years ago.

Carl Sagan-Scientist and philosopher understandably points out in his book Contact (yep the movie had Jodie Foster in) that if God was going to communicate through words then wouldn't he make it just so clear and completely undoubtable.

Matt

Zakk Daniels · Post by **Zakk Daniels** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:22 pm

frank wrote:good point nicole. i find atheism, particularly the virulent variety dawkins practices, rather curious. how can you hate something that simply doesn't exist? true, there is plenty to criticize about what evil has been done in Gods name. but what about soup kitchens and midnight missions? what about the millions of good people living quiet righteous lives?

by the same token, i do not find science and faith incompatible. they both operate under the assumption that there is an order and reason to this universe.

i think the conflict comes from trying to make science and religion one and the same. or pitting them against each other.

frank.

Hi Frank,

I agree totally with you and Nicdots.

Here is it plain and simple for everyone: If it were not for God, there would be NO Science!!! God created man in his own image, along with that came all different types of people. Scientist are great for advancing man's life here on earth, but please stop discounting my Savior. If it were not for God, you egotistical Scientists would not be around. PERIOD!!! Believe and receive everlasting life. NO TRUER WORDS WERE EVER SPOKEN!!!

ROCK ON!!!!!!

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:32 pm

In all honesty, I don't have any real problems with athiests...but I have a problem with the ones that look down on people who do believe in a higher power as if they were a bunch of country yokels! Lots of brilliant men, even scientists believe in a higher power.
At the church I used to attend, there was the woman who had parents who worked on the Manhattan project were big time scientists. While her parents were not religious, they came to the conclusion that there had to be a God. Why? When splitting atoms or whatnot, they always found that there was more underneath, and then more, and more and more and more. That it never ended. They believed that nothing that intricate could just spring up out of no where.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:48 pm

Hi Paul

Another interesting read.

I don't think the good and bad reference though is so black and white. What was considered good x amount of years ago is not considered good now, what is good for someone at the moment may be in a longer pattern of fate be beneficial in the end.

Morals and ethics are all relative to our own perception, surprisingly enough

most people think of themselves as the good guys and everyone else as wrong or misguided/evil etc.

That is a human way of perceiving things and attempting to as we as humans always do humanise God.

You said God said these things...did he??

Or are we relying on a middle man who we hold in high regard, because it is written anonymously on a 2000 year old document?

I am interested in the author and modern thinker Neale Donald Walshe who believes God talks to everyone all the time every day and believes that he didn't talk 1000's of years ago and then ceased speaking.

Conversations with God his series, far from being a sick cliche book full of Jesus Loves you nausea is actually one of a handful of books that I consider life as life changing.

Matt

Paul Wolfe · Post by **Paul Wolfe** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:13 am

Again, this is a faith issue. Believers consider the Bible to be the infallible word of God, spoken to man and recorded accurately.

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:58 am

I don't think it's best to take every single word in the Bible 100% literally though, as some can get carried away with it.
Some radical anti-semites use 1 Thessalonians as justification of their views. ("For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea; for you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all men." -- 1 Thes 2:14-15)

A lot of atheists also ask "How could the whole world be created in 7 days?" That's another case of taking things too literally. Besides, God's power transcends time. He IS God after all and can do whatever he wants, according to Christian philosophy. A day to God could be 1,000 years to man.

siro_angel · Post by **siro_angel** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:08 am

NicDots wrote:A day to God could be 1,000 years to man.

God sounds like Q

Simon

Paul Wolfe · Post by **Paul Wolfe** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:01 pm

Matt, my belief is that God can (and does) give man the ability to be infallible when He wants man to be infallible. If God wanted a man to write things down 60 years (or more) after the fact, I believe that He would arrange to have it done in the way He wants it done.

Have you ever been working on a problem - music related or otherwise - and all of a sudden, in a flash, the solution presents itself to you? That, to me, is God giving you the information you need at the precise time that He feels you are ready for it. Again, it's a faith thing.

Matt, faith will always be the stumbling block for believing. Jesus said it would be a difficult, narrow path to follow.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:19 pm

Paul Wolfe wrote:Matt, my belief is that God can (and does) give man the ability to be infallible when He wants man to be infallible. If God wanted a man to write things down 60 years (or more) after the fact, I believe that He would arrange to have it done in the way He wants it done.

Have you ever been working on a problem - music related or otherwise - and all of a sudden, in a flash, the solution presents itself to you? That, to me, is God giving you the information you need at the precise time that He feels you are ready for it. Again, it's a faith thing.

Matt, faith will always be the stumbling block for believing. Jesus said it would be a difficult, narrow path to follow.

My faith is with God/supreme being, and the way of compassion. My lack of reasoning (I disagree that my lack of faith is at fault here, but merely a lack of information) is because I do not believe that ANY words taken down by man, are absolute...and when those words contain inconsistencies with each other too it just makes me doubt further.

Insisting there is only one way in music, as you so rightly jest with me, is being a music snob, insisting there is only one way in following God is equally absurd. I think this is worse than snobbery, but a denial in whole truth of life/God/love- to assume the Bible is the only way and unquestionable in enitrety as truth.

All the extreminism found in all religions adopts this unbendable certainty that they are right...very...very...very dangerous!!

Matt

Paul Wolfe · Post by **Paul Wolfe** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:15 pm

Mathew 7: 1- 5[/u]: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. "

Matthew wrote: All the extreminism found in all religions adopts this unbendable certainty that they are right...very...very...very dangerous!!

I agree, Matt. Extremist views are dangerous. Unbending faith is not. They are not the same thing. The extremist will utilize only the verses that further his agenda. The person with the unbending faith simply believes what he believes and is not willing to change because someone says he is wrong.

You have a seemingly unbending attitude regarding the acceptance of the written word as devinely inspired and infallible. That is your prerogative, my friend. I am not trying to change that belief, I am simply explaining the Christian point of view on the subject.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:32 pm

Paul Wolfe wrote:Mathew 7: 1- 5: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. "

Matthew wrote: All the extreminism found in all religions adopts this unbendable certainty that they are right...very...very...very dangerous!!
I agree, Matt. Extremist views are dangerous. Unbending faith is not. They are not the same thing. The extremist will utilize only the verses that further his agenda. The person with the unbending faith simply believes what he believes and is not willing to change because someone says he is wrong.

You have a seemingly unbending attitude regarding the acceptance of the written word as devinely inspired and infallible. That is your prerogative, my friend. I am not trying to change that belief, I am simply explaining the Christian point of view on the subject.

Thankyou Paul

I agree judging is dangerous isn't it?..especially if we have not the 100 percent solid moral ground to pass judgment on in the first place.

Forgive me if what I am about to say may offend you, but if I may correct you, you are passing the Christain point of view from your point of view...ie you are deeming it as Christian. Our friend who married us is a Curate and regards himself as a Christian, but does not believe as you.

who is right?? Maybe both/neither/does it matter/can we as humans judge...I think not.

Going back to your quote. I think we should all take heed of that.

Matt

ps a fascinating argument and loads of learning...Good times!!

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:53 pm

Not all Christians believe the same exact thing, just as you pointed out between your Curate friend and Paul. I think Martin Luther said that everyone man is his own priest (ie, interprets the Bible differently). However, to be Christian, one has to accept the Trinity and the death of Jesus for all sins/sinners. I think anything/everything else is bendy like Gumby.

Dweebshire, were you raised religious or in a religious environment?
I ask because it has just occured to me that everyone I have ever known that has come to dislike religion in general (not saying that that's you or anything though) or even HATE religion have been raised Roman Catholic.