AndrewT1976 wrote:Why is it so hard for a lot of people to give Bob and Lee the credit they deserve??
Folks, the albums you LOVE (BOO and DOAMM) have Bob and Lee playing on them. Bob and Lee = 50% of the band. 50%!!!!! That's huge. The ryhthym section is totally important to each and every single song.
If they didn't have Bob and Lee, Ozzy's fate could have been much, much different. Plus, Bob wrote all the lyrics. Trust me, at this stage in Ozzy's life, any resemblance of bad lyrics would have been blasted by the music critics.
No Bob and Lee = Ozzy never becoming a household name.
I give Bob and Lee credit for helping make the magic that formed both albums. But I will not give Bob credit for writing Randys guitar parts. Im only 35, so I can't pretend that I was listening to either album when they came out. But I have PLENTY of older fellow musician friends that recall when BOO and DOAM came out. What caught their attention was Ozzy and "the new guitarist". Ive never heard anyone say that they bought those albums because of Bob and Lee.
AGAIN, Bob is a great bass player. I still say Lee is a mediocre drummer. I personally think Ozzy could have found a better drummer. But I will also say that BOO and DOAM are the best that Lee EVER sounded. It was a great combination that gave us 2 magical albums. But I will not give all of that credit to Lee. As a musician of course I listen to his bass lines and recognize them as being awesome. But your average Joe knows nothing about a bass line and could care less. They identify first with Ozzys voice, and then Randys guitar.
As far as your John Petrucci and Edge comparison. At the end of the day its all a matter of personal opinion. Music is always subjective and always will be. Im not a U2 fan persay. I respect them. I think they have written some great songs. And I think Edge is a master of sounds. I can tell you that John Petrucci is more than just a "shredder". Sure its his bread and butter. But if you think thats all he can do, then clearly you have not heard very many Dream Theater songs. Or any of his solo albums. Nor have you heard him do any covers. Go listen to him playing Randys parts in DTs Diary of Madman cover. And hey, its perfectly cool if you his paying isn't your cup of tea! Its YOUR opinion if you think Edge is better. Its YOUR opinion if you think Petrucci only shreds. DT is a progressive rock/metal band. They will never write songs that will appeal to the masses like U2 does. So its pointless to even compare them. BTW, DT has covered U2 songs in the past and Petrucci nails them. I wonder if Edge and the rest of the guys in U2 could nail a Dream Theater song.. Just food for thought.
Good points. Yeah, Petrucci is talented. I'm a DT fan myself, but I just wanted to clarify that cause Lee wasn't as technically proficient as Tommy, that doesn't mitigate the importance of Lee to the band. Sometimes a mediocre musician among highly talented individuals sounds cool. It sounds real. Lee was probably the weakest member, but you'd never guess it listening to those albums.
Plus, didn't Bob and Randy say to Lee "where have YOU been??" when they were at their wits end of auditioning drummers?? So, obviously Bob and Randy knew something was special about Lee.
I don't want to disrespect any bass players here but bass lines and drumming have never been what makes great albums. I respect Bobs contribution but what did Bob write exactly? I doubt he was writing riffs and cord progressions. If he was I would like to know which ones to what songs? If he wrote the lyrics and bass lines great. The bass and drums are super solid on those two albums, but Bob is not even considered a virtuoso bass player.
If Ozzy was coming up with the all vocal melodies thats a huge reason the songs were good and popular. The lyrics are not anything special. I would say not leaps and bounds better than QR lyrics. Its not the words themselves, but the way they are sung. Everyone knows you could substitute other lyrics (Ozzy did all the time). Weird AL he changes the lyrics but vocal melody and music stays the same. Still good music though. I have no doubt Bob was good for Randy during the sessions of writing because of his experience, but unless he was writing something other than lyrics and bass lines I don't find his contribution to be that great in determining the success of those albums.
I have read several interviews with Max Norman and he does not go on about Bob being driving force behind anything. I never read where he mentioned Bob being around when the guitar tracks were being laid down.
Good points. Yeah, I was just thinking along the lines of the original thing they had goin' there...like 4 guys jamming and making dreams come true. Giving birth to those musical babies that made the record. I think that comes through in a natural way.
You can't have a preganant woman for 9 months give birth to a plastic baby. See what I mean???
AndrewT1976 wrote:Good points. Yeah, I was just thinking along the lines of the original thing they had goin' there...like 4 guys jamming and making dreams come true. Giving birth to those musical babies that made the record. I think that comes through in a natural way.
You can't have a preganant woman for 9 months give birth to a plastic baby. See what I mean???
They did have something going. It was a great combo. I think Randy did flourish playing with Bob, Lee AND Ozzy. Lets face it. Kelli Garni, Drew Forsythe, and Kevin Dubrow were not anywhere near Bob, Lee, and Ozzys level in terms of musicianship or creativity. IMO Randy was more or less playing down to the guys in QRs level. They couldn't keep up with him, and they knew it. When Randy hooked up with Bob and Ozzy those guys could keep up. That doesn't mean Bob gets credit for making Randy who he was. Ive said before, none of us really know how those writing sessions happened. But I gurantee you that each song likely started with a guitar riff and a vocal melody.
No doubt it was a magical combo. I think the best was somehow brought out of them all on those two recordings. If you hear Ozzy on the radio chances are it's something off one of those two albums and look at how many he has made since. I like Zakk best out of his guitarist post RR but never really warmed to post Rhoads Ozzy.
AndrewT1976 wrote:I don't know if I agree 100% with that...
Say the original BOO line-up was Rudy (or someone like Rudy - an average bassist) instead of Bob. I think you would have been dealing with an album that sounded pretty much like a Quiet Riot album with Ozzy on vocals.
Bob was the main reason that BOO and DOAMM turned out the way they did. He probably told Randy stuff like.."hey, play in A Melodic Minor during this part, or play the Phyrigian mode during this part." Randy probably started to get the feel for composing pieces outside of standard bar pop/rock. But it was definitely Bob who channeled it.
Bob was the architect.
Are we really giving Bob credit now for Randys guitar parts???!!?? Bobs bass lines were great. Bob is a great musician. There is no disputing that. But this is getting a little ridiculous. I guess he wrote the drum parts too. It was his idea to double and triple track guitar parts. Ugh. Ive had enough of this "Bob" crap I guess it should be called Blizzard of Bob.
Matt
I agree with Matt. That's a lot of "probablys" as far as Bob coaching Randy is concerned. This is where I gotta bring up Ozzy. I remember the interview Randy had where he would mention what a good ear Ozzy had and how Ozzy would pick up on things that he liked when he heard Randy jamming, for instance Suicide Solution and Diary of a Madman. That right there shows how important OZZY was to the band. I think if it's anyone who misses some credit here is Ozzy himself! No, lyrics don't write themselves, but songs don't sing themselves either. Many people ask why doesn't Ozzy write the lyrics to his own songs? Well why doesn't Bob sing his own lyrics? Everyone has a gift...Ozzy has a gift to sing and do melodies and Bob is for writing lyrics (even if I think they are lame sounding).
I do believe it's become very in vogue to be pro Bob and pro Lee and it's part of the reason why I left .tk years and years ago. Why should I believe Bob over Ozzy? Why should I value Bob over Ozzy? Ozzy (and Randy, or other guitarists) are why I love the music, not Bob's bass parts or his lyrics. Yes it's sad that he signed a shitty contract, but that's not my problem and there's nothing I, or any fan can do about what happened 30 plus years ago.
AndrewT1976 wrote:I don't know if I agree 100% with that...
Say the original BOO line-up was Rudy (or someone like Rudy - an average bassist) instead of Bob. I think you would have been dealing with an album that sounded pretty much like a Quiet Riot album with Ozzy on vocals.
Bob was the main reason that BOO and DOAMM turned out the way they did. He probably told Randy stuff like.."hey, play in A Melodic Minor during this part, or play the Phyrigian mode during this part." Randy probably started to get the feel for composing pieces outside of standard bar pop/rock. But it was definitely Bob who channeled it.
Bob was the architect.
Are we really giving Bob credit now for Randys guitar parts???!!?? Bobs bass lines were great. Bob is a great musician. There is no disputing that. But this is getting a little ridiculous. I guess he wrote the drum parts too. It was his idea to double and triple track guitar parts. Ugh. Ive had enough of this "Bob" crap I guess it should be called Blizzard of Bob.
Matt
I agree with Matt. That's a lot of "probablys" as far as Bob coaching Randy is concerned. This is where I gotta bring up Ozzy. I remember the interview Randy had where he would mention what a good ear Ozzy had and how Ozzy would pick up on things that he liked when he heard Randy jamming, for instance Suicide Solution and Diary of a Madman. That right there shows how important OZZY was to the band. I think if it's anyone who misses some credit here is Ozzy himself! No, lyrics don't write themselves, but songs don't sing themselves either. Many people ask why doesn't Ozzy write the lyrics to his own songs? Well why doesn't Bob sing his own lyrics? Everyone has a gift...Ozzy has a gift to sing and do melodies and Bob is for writing lyrics (even if I think they are lame sounding).
I do believe it's become very in vogue to be pro Bob and pro Lee and it's part of the reason why I left .tk years and years ago. Why should I believe Bob over Ozzy? Why should I value Bob over Ozzy? Ozzy (and Randy, or other guitarists) are why I love the music, not Bob's bass parts or his lyrics. Yes it's sad that he signed a shitty contract, but that's not my problem and there's nothing I, or any fan can do about what happened 30 plus years ago.
+48484
I agree with everything you said and have said the same things more than once on this forum. Ozzy doesn't get enough credit. Not only does he have one of the most unique voices in metal history, but the man comes up with some GREAT melodies. I play in a pretty successful cover band here in North Carolina. We have been through 3 singers. All of them good in their own way. But I can tell you that each one of them has struggled to sing any of the Ozzy tunes we do. Not because they are trying to sound like him, but because they struggle with some of his melodies. That says a lot. And lets not forget, Ozzy has a pretty good track record of picking guitarists. Randy. Jake E. Lee. Zakk Wylde. Not too shabby.
NicDots wrote:
I agree with Matt. That's a lot of "probablys" as far as Bob coaching Randy is concerned. This is where I gotta bring up Ozzy. I remember the interview Randy had where he would mention what a good ear Ozzy had and how Ozzy would pick up on things that he liked when he heard Randy jamming, for instance Suicide Solution and Diary of a Madman. That right there shows how important OZZY was to the band. I think if it's anyone who misses some credit here is Ozzy himself! No, lyrics don't write themselves, but songs don't sing themselves either. Many people ask why doesn't Ozzy write the lyrics to his own songs? Well why doesn't Bob sing his own lyrics? Everyone has a gift...Ozzy has a gift to sing and do melodies and Bob is for writing lyrics (even if I think they are lame sounding).
I do believe it's become very in vogue to be pro Bob and pro Lee and it's part of the reason why I left .tk years and years ago. Why should I believe Bob over Ozzy? Why should I value Bob over Ozzy? Ozzy (and Randy, or other guitarists) are why I love the music, not Bob's bass parts or his lyrics. Yes it's sad that he signed a shitty contract, but that's not my problem and there's nothing I, or any fan can do about what happened 30 plus years ago.
distortionplus wrote:I don't want to disrespect any bass players here but bass lines and drumming have never been what makes great albums. I respect Bobs contribution but what did Bob write exactly? I doubt he was writing riffs and cord progressions. If he was I would like to know which ones to what songs? If he wrote the lyrics and bass lines great. The bass and drums are super solid on those two albums, but Bob is not even considered a virtuoso bass player.
If Ozzy was coming up with the all vocal melodies thats a huge reason the songs were good and popular. The lyrics are not anything special. I would say not leaps and bounds better than QR lyrics. Its not the words themselves, but the way they are sung. Everyone knows you could substitute other lyrics (Ozzy did all the time). Weird AL he changes the lyrics but vocal melody and music stays the same. Still good music though. I have no doubt Bob was good for Randy during the sessions of writing because of his experience, but unless he was writing something other than lyrics and bass lines I don't find his contribution to be that great in determining the success of those albums.
I have read several interviews with Max Norman and he does not go on about Bob being driving force behind anything. I never read where he mentioned Bob being around when the guitar tracks were being laid down.
Exactly what I think. Bob was never a good composer but a very solid bass player. Let's face it, he doesn't have the talent as a composer like Steve Harris of Iron Maiden has. The problem for many bass players who compose in a band is, quite simply, that for most people a melody is recognizable only with a guitar or keyboard. When a bass player would like to write songs, then he should definitely learn a second instrument, be it rhythm guitar or keyboards. I experienced this again and again in the nineties, when I was the bass player in the Death Metal band Amon. I could only bring my song ideas when I started playing guitar!
Alex wrote:Rather silly lyrics though, aren't they?
I mean, No Bone Movies? Flying High Again? Crazy Train? He's definitely no Bob Dylan, Neil Diamond or Roger Waters.
Ozzy could have sang the phone book over Randy's music and the albums still would have sold. No one bought those albums because of the "great" lyrics. They bought them because they loved Ozzy, the Madman and the guitar playing
I think the guitar playing part came later. The ONLY reason people went to see them and bought BOO in the first little while was because the band had the FORMER SINGER FROM BLACK SABBATH in it....end of story
It's good to find people with common sense!
Of course, Bob is a great bassist but an average lyricist.
Geezer Butler kicks Bob's ass and never is crying for recognition of his genius.
Ozzy's contribution to Blizzard and Diary is much more important than Bob's contribution.
But some people seem to ignore it, believing in all that Bob speaks.
Ozzy's pop melodies and amazing Randy's guitar led Hard Rock to a new level musically and commercially. They are geniuses togheter!
Ozzy needs to be recognized. He deserves it!
Zakk is spot on. Randy was a talented guitar player in Quiet Riot. But he became a PHENOMENAL guitar player with Ozzy. I think part of it was Randy constantly striving to get better as a musician. You can hear little pieces of Ozzy in different parts of Quiet Riot, but it wasn't developed. The difference between QRII and "Blizzard" is light years and, in my opinion, "Diary" is a step above "Blizzard." One can hear RR improving throughout these recordings.
Playing with Ozzy, in my opinion, gave RR a much bigger canvas to work with. Both Kevin Dubrow and Rudy Sarzo had said in past interviews that Quiet Riot was trying to secure a major stateside record deal and were tailoring their music to what the record labels were suggesting. In Ozzy's band, Randy was helping to create a sound as opposed to following a trend. And there was great chemistry on those records: Ozzy's distinictive keening wail, unique charisma and terrific melodies, Randy's fantastic yet tasteful shredding, Bob's lyrical contributions and solid bass playing (and I also think Bob's playing on "Diary" is much better) and Lee's solid thumping made a great sonic combination.
I also think working with top rock musicians/performers like Ozzy, Bob and Lee helped greatly. I've been playing guitar for over 25 years and can tell you that playing with more better musicians forces you to "elevate your game." Whatever one wants to say about the parties involved and who wrote what, they were all seasoned professionals. Playing with them was a huge step up from the QR days.
Vtrockgod wrote:Getting back to the original point...........lol
Zakk is spot on. Randy was a talented guitar player in Quiet Riot. But he became a PHENOMENAL guitar player with Ozzy. I think part of it was Randy constantly striving to get better as a musician. You can hear little pieces of Ozzy in different parts of Quiet Riot, but it wasn't developed. The difference between QRII and "Blizzard" is light years and, in my opinion, "Diary" is a step above "Blizzard." One can hear RR improving throughout these recordings.
Playing with Ozzy, in my opinion, gave RR a much bigger canvas to work with. Both Kevin Dubrow and Rudy Sarzo had said in past interviews that Quiet Riot was trying to secure a major stateside record deal and were tailoring their music to what the record labels were suggesting. In Ozzy's band, Randy was helping to create a sound as opposed to following a trend. And there was great chemistry on those records: Ozzy's distinictive keening wail, unique charisma and terrific melodies, Randy's fantastic yet tasteful shredding, Bob's lyrical contributions and solid bass playing (and I also think Bob's playing on "Diary" is much better) and Lee's solid thumping made a great sonic combination.
I also think working with top rock musicians/performers like Ozzy, Bob and Lee helped greatly. I've been playing guitar for over 25 years and can tell you that playing with more better musicians forces you to "elevate your game." Whatever one wants to say about the parties involved and who wrote what, they were all seasoned professionals. Playing with them was a huge step up from the QR days.
