The Religion, Atheism and Science Discussion

Post by **Trigger** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:26 pm

Paul Wolfe wrote:
Zakk Daniels wrote:Oh ye of little faith.
Amen.

But talked about by most people of differing views with respect and real friendship.
That is what I love about this place

Paul Wolfe · Post by **Paul Wolfe** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:27 pm

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:36 pm

Yes, the Jewish presence in the death of Jesus is great of course, but it is never wise to state that the Jews killed Jesus as it breeds anti-semitism. Not saying that you were doing that, cause you weren't, but I know that there are Christians who state that and who are firmly anti-Semitic.
Thinking of the New Testament, St. Paul says some pretty bad things about Jews, but I am sure I already posted the quotations elsewhere in this thread.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:45 am

Through out history (way before the Bible too) there has been talk of a messiah that would come, be born of a virgin and fulfill prophecies and eventually crucified.

These stories are now just associated with Christianity.Many too were raised on the third day, sat at the right hand of the father. etc

Matt

Post by **Trigger** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:53 pm

The reason that this thread uses 'Theology' in its title really allows debate and comparison between all faiths and it's views on all aspects of life. I like the way that the thread has progressed and anyone emarking into it will know what to expect and understand that they will perhaps get there own oppinions analised, this really leaves no speace for offence.
We even can see when people making sweeping attacks or petty insults without indulging in the topics for questioning. I think the spirit of UR is really sailing on through such hard topics as these and thankyou all for your mature posting and acceptance of all differing views.
The Christian principle of forgivness is really an advantage when debating these topics.

Ian

Post by **The Flying Dutchman** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:47 pm

Trigger wrote:The Christian principle of forgivness is really an advantage when debating these topics.

(sorry man......, but I just lost a mouth with coffee when I saw that line! )

But yes I agree with most Ian!

Paul Wolfe · Post by **Paul Wolfe** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:33 pm

McLowery · Post by **McLowery** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:01 pm

Paul Wolfe wrote:
The reason for the woes of the Jews since the crucifixion of Jesus is clearly explained in Matthew 23: 37-39 -

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

The reason for the woe of the Jews has nothing to do with the fact that there may have been a man, a fellow Jew, whom was picked to die over a man charged with murder. This is taken from stories decades older than the time they talk about.

When Rome scattered the Jewish people and levelled Jeruselem it was because the Jews would not claim Ceaser as a god on earth and also Rome's diplomacy with the Jewish state had broken down thus calling for the legion to do it's work. Today Israel causes more woes to more people throughout the world than anything that has ever happened to them. The market there is based on war technologies and how does a nation push it's market into successful growth when it is based on war technologies, that's right, wage perpetual war. It is unavoidable that your enemies will strike back, anyway they can against such beligerance. Israel is a warmongering nation, led by the Zionist's whose agenda doesn't include any one who doesn't have the covenant with god. (that means all non-Jews). They are their own reason for all the turns that have gone south on them.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:40 pm

Paul Wolfe wrote:
Matthew wrote:Through out history (way before the Bible too) there has been talk of a messiah that would come, be born of a virgin and fulfill prophecies and eventually crucified.

These stories are now just associated with Christianity.Many too were raised on the third day, sat at the right hand of the father. etc

Matt
And all the prophesies were fulfilled with Jesus. You will never believe, Matt, because you insist on proof. There is no proof with any religion. Only belief and faith. So you must choose to believe what you will.

I just find it interesting that you try so hard to convince others that Jesus isn't the Son of God. The Bible tells us there will be many who make .

Staring with the last point. I am not trying to convince anyone anything. I am though keen (as it is the nature of the thread) to discuss religion, atheism and science and philosophy.

In regards to the prophecies you are correct. In many religions the predictions have been fulfilled with the various messiahs too.

One thing that does come to mind with you though Paul. As your interpretaion of the word faith is the main thing that just closes the deal for you. Is it worth someone like yourself trying to actually understand more of the Bible- i.e dates, meaning, comparisons etc or even be in a discussion on this subject.

The reason I ask this is because you have faith that you know the those type of questions anyway. So why bother trying to make intellectual sense of them.

Mike,

Excellent read thankyou

Matt

Post by **Trigger** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:50 pm

The Flying Dutchman wrote:
Trigger wrote:The Christian principle of forgivness is really an advantage when debating these topics.

(sorry man......, but I just lost a mouth with coffee when I saw that line! )

But yes I agree with most Ian!

Well the forgivness principle seems ironic sometimes, but this is the foundation stone of Christianity and is always easy to notice when it isn't put into practice.
Im not a Christian.

Ian

Post by **The Flying Dutchman** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:57 pm

Trigger wrote:
The Flying Dutchman wrote:
Trigger wrote:The Christian principle of forgivness is really an advantage when debating these topics.

(sorry man......, but I just lost a mouth with coffee when I saw that line! )

But yes I agree with most Ian!
Well the forgivness principle seems ironic sometimes, but this is the foundation stone of Christianity and is always easy to notice when it isn't put into practice.
Im not a Christian.

Ian

Well I guess you have to explain this to somebody.......

Paul Wolfe · Post by **Paul Wolfe** » Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:40 am

McLowery · Post by **McLowery** » Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:25 pm

Paul, this accusation directly connects someone who was known to have unconditional love for all people and unsurmountable forgivness for them as well. How can anyone rationally believe the above statement and then turn right around and say that the being of pure love and pure forgiveness is causing havoc for the Jews (the peoples who killed him,) throughout history for what they had done to him. This concept is antiquated and petty.

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:56 pm

Paul Wolfe wrote: Nicole, I understand what you mean about the anti-Semitics, but by not holding the Jews accountable for their part, the truth isn't being told. It'd be like pretending the Japanese didn't attack the U.S. in WW2 because we don't want to be racist and condemn the Japanese. It happened, they did it, it was bad and now the world has (mostly) moved on.

What gets me about anti-Semitics is that without the Jews arranging for the crucifixion, Jesus would not have been killed and given the opportunity to rise on the third day. They were a necessary part of the plan and without them there would be no Christianity as we know it. So rather than hate the Jews 'because they killed Jesus', I believe we should accept their part in history move on with following God's laws today (none of which involve ating anyone).

We cannot hold the Jews who crucified Jesus accountable as they are all dead now.

A middle aged Jew today has as much to do with the crucifixion as a middle aged Japanese person has to do with bombing Pearl Harbor. (Besides, it's not like the US didn't bomb the shit outta Japan anyway).

And yes, I am totally with you on that last part. The Jews play an incredible part in Christianity...it's too bad that some look past that and only see them as Christ killers.
At the Halloween party I was at last night, I was shocked to hearing a group of guys talking about why they hated Jews.