Moore on Aurora.

[oth]

http://news.yahoo.com/conn-man-kills-ma ... 53076.html

Self defence turns tragic-how a father shoots and kills his own son whom he thought was a robber breaking into a neighbors house.Had he called the police instead ,the cops would ve either not shot the kid or the kid would have surrendered or run away when he heard the sirens.

Yet incidents don't get national exposure.
http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety ... s-officer/

U can't always count on police.. and it's funny how the story doesn't even get any national headlines.. the gun club I belong to has cops. There are shoots where u can compete with cops. Let's just say average citizens shoot better then most cops who show up.. wierd.. and there supposed to protect us? No its to protect themselves first. Member the la riots? Police didn't even go I... Guess whay stores didn't het looted and ransacked? The ones who were gun owners. the ca supreme court justices said cops cant be everywhere to protect u. Hmmmm

Great,so 3 people are dead over some dog crap?Thank god everybody had access to guns cuz it sure helped a lot...???

[Paul Wolfe]

This is a tragic story of a father who shot and killed his own son by accident. The kid was dressed in black wearing a mask and wielding a knife (God knows why) outside his aunt's house. The aunt called the dad because she feared a prowler... the dad grabbed his gun, yelled at the 'prowler' and then opened fire when he was approached.

Seems to me that the aunt should have called 911 and then called her brother. The father should have gone to his sister's house and waited with her for the police. No problem with him having the gun, but you never shoot unless it's the last resort. Even then, shoot for the legs and wound the guy, he doesn't have to die.

[Tito]

im sorry paul but if someone is charging at you in black wearing a mask and you have a gun its open season to protect your family and yourself..and what the hell is wrong with that kid charging his dad??nobody seems to ask this question...

[RRFan4Ever]

My bro and I were just discussing that case today Paul, I agree wirh you- why shoot to kill- I would personally be content to incapacitate an intruder. I don't own a gun but if I did, I would contemplate these what if's, isn't protection a major reason people arm themselves? Why leave that shit to chance if you're exercising your constitutional right to bare arms? I believe that would be the same as not driving a car until your behind the wheel test. Makes no sense to me.

[Paul Wolfe]

im sorry paul but if someone is charging at you in black wearing a mask and you have a gun its open season to protect your family and yourself..and what the hell is wrong with that kid charging his dad??nobody seems to ask this question...

The article says, "He confronted someone in a ski mask and opened fire when the person came at him with something shiny in his hand, police said." So I'm not sure about 'charging', but I still feel that the proper move is to stay inside the home until the police arrive.

My big question is, as you stated, what the hell was wrong with that kid? When the dad said something, the first move of the kid should have been to remove the mask and accept the ass-kicking for scaring his aunt. At least he'd be alive.

I just feel that if you're going to point a gun at someone, you should be trained and skilled enough to wing him and not kill him. If you don't have that level of skill, you shouldn't be pointing a gun at someone.

[sik_kreations]

im sorry paul but if someone is charging at you in black wearing a mask and you have a gun its open season to protect your family and yourself..and what the hell is wrong with that kid charging his dad??nobody seems to ask this question...

The article says, "He confronted someone in a ski mask and opened fire when the person came at him with something shiny in his hand, police said." So I'm not sure about 'charging', but I still feel that the proper move is to stay inside the home until the police arrive.

My big question is, as you stated, what the hell was wrong with that kid? When the dad said something, the first move of the kid should have been to remove the mask and accept the ass-kicking for scaring his aunt. At least he'd be alive.

I just feel that if you're going to point a gun at someone, you should be trained and skilled enough to wing him and not kill him. If you don't have that level of skill, you shouldn't be pointing a gun at someone.

What do u do when the police are running late and the intruder(s) are in your house, or worse in front of you?

Where are the cops to save these people?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=rela ... Jey1pBl8AY

Less then a minute and this guy had to shoot, not a chance in hell a cop could save..
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=rela ... dA_5r_Gu-A

Man this guy is alive still..
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=rela ... uhKCiY-lu0



If you are that naive to think cops can just magically appear, ur sadly mistaken.
If it was ur family or a scum bag criminal.. Who's it Guna be? No brainier for me..

In California, because of anti gun people like yourselves.. You have tobe very careful how you act.. Doing something as having reloaded ammo, or something as simple as modifying the action or look of your gun to what u lIke can land u in jail. Shoot to kill but you can make it look pro.

[Paul Wolfe]

Dude, you're way too defensive. I'm discussing one specific case. If there is no other solution then, by all means do what is necessary. Shoot-first-ask-questions-later is a neanderthal response regardless of how many examples you post.

It's funny how you call me an 'anti-gun person'. You know nothing about me or my experiences with guns, do you? Did I ever claim to be anti-gun? Nope, just like I never called you anything.

Feel free to disagree with me, that's cool, but please think before posting and refrain from jumping to conclusions. You obviously have a great deal of emotion attached to this subject, so much so that seem to respond based on emotion before you look at things objectively. Again, do as you will, I'm fine with that, just stating my point of view.

[rice_pudding]

im sorry paul but if someone is charging at you in black wearing a mask and you have a gun its open season to protect your family and yourself..and what the hell is wrong with that kid charging his dad??nobody seems to ask this question...

Your right, the real question is what the hell was the kid doing. I can only assume it was a prank that started out as a terrible idea, and got somehow got worse.

But, since this thread is about gun control/gun use...

You call it open season, but in situations like this I don't think logic even comes into it. If I was armed with a gun, being charged by someone who I think is holding a knife, my gut reaction would be to fire. It would probably be beyond my control, I wouldn't even think about it, never mind aim for the legs. Even if you did shoot someone in the leg, hit an artery and their dead anyway... It's adrenaline and the fight or flight mechanism. That's the reason I would never arm myself with a firearm in the first place. That's the reason I avoid confrontation and conflict. Even in a physical fight all it takes is a bad knock to the head, or a nasty fall and people can die. It sounds ridiculous but it does happen.

Guns empower people, they empower you to kill others, that's what a gun does. Would the guy have been brave enough to go outside if he didn't have a gun? How many people have been killed/injured because they were perceived as a threat and confronted? Self defense isn't an option, confrontation is!

There is a legitimate argument for what if you have a dangerous lunatic/rapist break into your home. But there are real complications to it. For instance; If someone breaks in do you have time to reach the gun anyway? In america you have the circular logic of "everyone has a gun, so I need a gun in case they attack me", another complication. How many criminals could have been scared off, but got killed instead? Without a lot of "real" statistics (not made up Yamamoto quotes *facepalm*) you can't really come to a conclusion. The problem is that this line of argument is not about what might happen, or whether you should deprive a man of something based on the actions of others (eg. the violence in films debate). It's simply a balance of do guns save more lives than they take. Which does almost read as a rhetorical question...

All I can really say from my point of view, is that everyone in the world faces the same danger of a lunatic/rapist entering their home. Crimes will always happen. In the UK I've never heard people start saying x or y would never have happened if I owned a gun. And we have our share of yellow journalism...

The gun debate in America seems to be sadly marred by emotion, sentiment, poorly researched statistics, far fetched statements, occasional lies and sensationalism. Like the poor exhibit below... Just so everyone is clear, the "quote" is FAKE and even if it wasn't carries very little, if any, historical weight among people with a brain.



Has America ever had a proper debate on gun control?

Rob

[Tito]

rob that was a very good point...but there are a ton of americans that hate the thought of guns..theres alot thats not bieng said because of the ongoing investigation with this case..i read earlier that the father said not long after he shot the intruder,that he had a feeling it was his son he shot..so that leads me to believe that he hadnt seen his son in a while(possibly a runaway)..im not saying he knew it was his "adopted son' but theres more to the story..and by the boy bieng adopted doesnt mean he was loved any less than a blood son..he raised him as his own...so i think the kid was fucked up on pills or whatever kids are doing these days and took a chance at getting some money or shit to sell for his habit...and then you have the end result ...

[Paul Wolfe]

You call it open season, but in situations like this I don't think logic even comes into it. If I was armed with a gun, being charged by someone who I think is holding a knife, my gut reaction would be to fire. It would probably be beyond my control, I wouldn't even think about it, never mind aim for the legs. Even if you did shoot someone in the leg, hit an artery and their dead anyway... It's adrenaline and the fight or flight mechanism. That's the reason I would never arm myself with a firearm in the first place. That's the reason I avoid confrontation and conflict.

Very well said. I am not 'anti-gun' as was suggested, I simply choose to not own a gun. I also teach my children to avoid conflict. In 46 years I can count on 2 fingers the number of times I was in a situation that escalated into a fight. One was in the 4th grade at recess, the other was in a Seattle parking lot where I knew better than to be.. and just for the record, the cops DID save my ass that night.

[rice_pudding]

rob that was a very good point...but there are a ton of americans that hate the thought of guns..theres alot thats not bieng said because of the ongoing investigation with this case..

In an ideal world there would be a proper news story behind the attention grabbing headline. Journalists ought to realise they have a responsibility to provide balanced content, especially when they release a story that is likely to divide opinion over an issue. Maybe that would spark intelligent debate, rather than allowing it to continue in such an extremely polarized way (ban all guns VS more guns etc.)? Either way, both sides of the gun debate will no doubt spin it their way once the full story emerges. This case will no doubt prove the rule, or be the exception to the rule, depending on your stance.

If I can play devils advocate; what if people had to take (and pass) an educational course before being granted ownership? Is there any such programme in the US? Teach people that a gun doesn't mean you turn into Rambo, and can confront possible criminals. Drum it into peoples heads that you don't fuck around with guns. etc.etc. you make up the rest

I used to be in the Army Cadets and that is the only time I have every handled a weapon in my life. I still remember the basic training. They made it very clear guns were not to be taken lightly. A couple of people bent the rules, they had a pissed off NCO in their face and the old "drop and give me 50". Respect and safety was not a choice, haha. I've seen a couple of American TV shows (Sons of Guns), and the attitude towards guns they represent, not to mention the stupidity of the people in the show, is the complete opposite of what I was taught. People laughing and screaming like excited kids, should not be handling weapons.

Many pro-gunners often say people are the problem not guns. An academic distinction if you ask me. But if that's the case, what is being done to take the human error out of guns?

Very well said. I am not 'anti-gun' as was suggested, I simply choose to not own a gun. I also teach my children to avoid conflict. In 46 years I can count on 2 fingers the number of times I was in a situation that escalated into a fight. One was in the 4th grade at recess, the other was in a Seattle parking lot where I knew better than to be.. and just for the record, the cops DID save my ass that night.

You know I started studying Aikido over a year ago. A martial art that teaches you to defend yourself without hurting your assailant - fancy that!?

Rob