Am I the only one that finds the brutal murder of dictators horrible? I have seen the on line world celebrate the brutal deaths of dictators, I want to see people like him on trial for human rights violations! after all we managed to get Milosovic to the Haque to face trial but he was a European so are we veiwing non Europeans as less valuable? yes he was wicked and yes he deserved to be ousted from power but could we not have handled this better? I know his own people butchered him as he had butchered his own people but due to the fact NATO made this possible shouldn't we have insisted on his being taken alive if possible? and it would have been possible because he was alive then he was beaten to death and shot.
Saddam was put on trial but then he had the indignity of being hung and having it filmed on put on the TV, Bin Laden shot and dumped at sea! another missed trial! are we wanting these brutal dictators and murderers dead because if they go to trial they will be able to tell the world how we coludede with them?
We have seen in Libya how one of the rebel leaders (supported by us) was handed to Gadafis secret services to be tortured and we Brit's had given them info and delivered him to Libya for torture.
I am not condoning I am just a democrat disapointed that we have againe missed a chance of trial yet again.
Gadafi's death!
Moderators: Randy Perry, The Flying Dutchman, Stiltzkin, skezza, Trigger
Gadafi's death!
Cologne she'll wear silver and americard, She'll drive a beetle car and beat you down at cool Canasta. And when the clothes are strewn don't be afraid of the room touch the fullness of her breast feel the love of her caress she will be your living end.
-
rice_pudding
- Mass Poster
- Posts: 1734
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:49 pm
- Location: UK
Re: Gadafi's death!
Ian, I doubt NATO would have had much say. I suspect somewhere in Sirte right now, half a dozen Libyan's are in a bar, arguing over who shot the guy. It's good that he's gone but the whole thing is another dirty affair. We have perhaps arrived at this point as a result of our Prime Minister making some short-sighted comments a couple of months ago.
It perhaps speaks volumes about the press that our latest, incredibly transparent, oil grab goes reported as a triumph for human rights while Iraq faced criticism from the outset.
And so it ends with an old, madman begging for his life, and brutally murdered. That's the funny thing about revolution, it turns the world upside down, but it doesn't really change anything. Yesterday's slaves become tomorrows tyrants. One human rights tragedy becomes another. And now we send cheques to the New Libyan State for our oil, instead of Gadafi.
It's a wonder we don't blow each other up!
Rob
It perhaps speaks volumes about the press that our latest, incredibly transparent, oil grab goes reported as a triumph for human rights while Iraq faced criticism from the outset.
And so it ends with an old, madman begging for his life, and brutally murdered. That's the funny thing about revolution, it turns the world upside down, but it doesn't really change anything. Yesterday's slaves become tomorrows tyrants. One human rights tragedy becomes another. And now we send cheques to the New Libyan State for our oil, instead of Gadafi.
It's a wonder we don't blow each other up!
Rob
www.rstorey.co.uk
Re: Gadafi's death!
ian the footage i saw showed him alive then dead kicking and spitting on him etc....the thing i noticed right away was these "rebels" showed thier true colors...they are no better than the man they summarily executed..what alot of people dont realize is now comes the purging....followers of gadaffi are going to be found in alleys hung in trees and shot in broad daylight..so this isnt a new beginning for lybia its just a beginning for a new tyrant waiting to be put into power...
Re: Gadafi's death!
One revolution replacing another revolution! we assist these nations into become so rabid and brutal and yes I fear that we will see people hanging from trees and lamposts etc! And Rob is right we will be handing over cheques for oil to but we will be just singing them over to another person now!
I just feel horrible inside seeing people and pundits here in the west taking plesure from the brutal murder of Gadafi! and what value does democracy have if we deal with criminals by inflicting the mob on them. I know Libya is again being re-born as it was following the green revolution but we have been encouraging the Arab world with the Arab spring and that is right, it is right if they get real self determination,liberty equality and freedom to travel and worship.
That said, watching them brtaly murder a crimminal instead of putting him on trial as we do here really bothers me.
What is more our governments are delighted with the outcome for Gadafi, none of them have said they deplore the actions of the mob.
Here in Britain we do not have the death penalty and I remember reading about the last British executioner Albert Peirpoint who had the job of hanging the SS leaders in Belson concentration camp in 1946. he insisted that each person was measured and had a coffin ready after they were executed, he washed the bodies and laid them out for burial. One body, a woman, didn't have a coffin and when he asked the British army who were dealing with it where her coffin was he was told it had been forgotten, he said get her a coffing now! they told him don't worry about it she is just a nazi!
He told them she deserved dignity in death because she had paid her debt for the things she had done and now she was free of crimes and deserved the decency any other person deserves.
This is how I feel with the demise of Gadafi, he deserved a trial not a mob! and in death after trial he deserved a peaceful execution (if that is what he would have been condemned too).
I just feel horrible inside seeing people and pundits here in the west taking plesure from the brutal murder of Gadafi! and what value does democracy have if we deal with criminals by inflicting the mob on them. I know Libya is again being re-born as it was following the green revolution but we have been encouraging the Arab world with the Arab spring and that is right, it is right if they get real self determination,liberty equality and freedom to travel and worship.
That said, watching them brtaly murder a crimminal instead of putting him on trial as we do here really bothers me.
What is more our governments are delighted with the outcome for Gadafi, none of them have said they deplore the actions of the mob.
Here in Britain we do not have the death penalty and I remember reading about the last British executioner Albert Peirpoint who had the job of hanging the SS leaders in Belson concentration camp in 1946. he insisted that each person was measured and had a coffin ready after they were executed, he washed the bodies and laid them out for burial. One body, a woman, didn't have a coffin and when he asked the British army who were dealing with it where her coffin was he was told it had been forgotten, he said get her a coffing now! they told him don't worry about it she is just a nazi!
He told them she deserved dignity in death because she had paid her debt for the things she had done and now she was free of crimes and deserved the decency any other person deserves.
This is how I feel with the demise of Gadafi, he deserved a trial not a mob! and in death after trial he deserved a peaceful execution (if that is what he would have been condemned too).
Cologne she'll wear silver and americard, She'll drive a beetle car and beat you down at cool Canasta. And when the clothes are strewn don't be afraid of the room touch the fullness of her breast feel the love of her caress she will be your living end.
-
rice_pudding
- Mass Poster
- Posts: 1734
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:49 pm
- Location: UK
Re: Gadafi's death!
We can normally come to some level of agreement about what is good or bad, but things are never simple. How many people in Libya supported Gadafi? Maybe some of these people were mislead, others may have considered him the lesser evil, some will have simply genuinely supported him. Many of these people will be completely innocent. And what of the neutrals who shed no blood? What rights will these people have in the new libya? Revolution is a cycle of revenge. We can kid ourselves, but that leads nowhere.
Rob
Rob
www.rstorey.co.uk
-
RR-ElectricAngel
- Mass Poster
- Posts: 999
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:32 am
- Location: San Antonio, Texas
- Contact:
Re: Gadafi's death!
I think this article (while very slanted) says it all. The horrible truth: A nation in flux is good for opportunists.
http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=121432
"AFTER the overthrow of Colonel Gaddafi’s government, the British government has started planning for grabbing contracts in oil and gas, health and other sectors worth billions of pounds in Libya.
The London based correspondent of this newspaper in a report said Libya could be one of the world’s biggest growth areas for UK firms and the government has calculated 200 billion pounds of contracts over the next ten years. The UK Trade & Investment department, which promotes business abroad said it was working with the National Transitional Council in Libya to ascertain how British firms can enter into the country for reconstruction and development. That means that the UK government and firms are all set to swarm Libya and this reinforces the perception every where that the real concern of NATO support for removal of Gaddafi regime was to grab business contracts and not the large scale human rights violations. It will be typical in line with the British history because wherever the country intervened it had hegemonistic designs to plunder the vast natural resources in Asia and Africa. While the Americans and other countries are interfering in oil rich countries to ensure their energy security, the Britishers are more interested to extend their business interests. With the support of the media these countries project their interventions by painting themselves as saviours but the real objectives are commercial to plunder the natural resources. While the west is in the midst of financial and economic crisis, it needs the oil, business contracts and financial resources to stabilize the economy. Therefore we would caution the people of the remaining countries on the hit liot of the west, to well understand their intentions, do not fall in their trap, because they are not friends of the people opposing their regimes but only backing them to ultimately realize their own interests."
http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=121432
"AFTER the overthrow of Colonel Gaddafi’s government, the British government has started planning for grabbing contracts in oil and gas, health and other sectors worth billions of pounds in Libya.
The London based correspondent of this newspaper in a report said Libya could be one of the world’s biggest growth areas for UK firms and the government has calculated 200 billion pounds of contracts over the next ten years. The UK Trade & Investment department, which promotes business abroad said it was working with the National Transitional Council in Libya to ascertain how British firms can enter into the country for reconstruction and development. That means that the UK government and firms are all set to swarm Libya and this reinforces the perception every where that the real concern of NATO support for removal of Gaddafi regime was to grab business contracts and not the large scale human rights violations. It will be typical in line with the British history because wherever the country intervened it had hegemonistic designs to plunder the vast natural resources in Asia and Africa. While the Americans and other countries are interfering in oil rich countries to ensure their energy security, the Britishers are more interested to extend their business interests. With the support of the media these countries project their interventions by painting themselves as saviours but the real objectives are commercial to plunder the natural resources. While the west is in the midst of financial and economic crisis, it needs the oil, business contracts and financial resources to stabilize the economy. Therefore we would caution the people of the remaining countries on the hit liot of the west, to well understand their intentions, do not fall in their trap, because they are not friends of the people opposing their regimes but only backing them to ultimately realize their own interests."
To be a teacher you must never stop learning yourself...
Re: Gadafi's death!
EA, I am a Brit' and I fully agree! Iam sick to my stomach over this because the Arab spring was about giving control, democracy, self determination, freedom to traven and worship to the Arab people.
We saw this work fine in Egypt and Tunisia, to a degree even in Yemen. We are watching a perpetuation of the same western activities in a new arab world as we saw in the old arab world. As a person who has been to the middle east in good times and bad I find how we are behaving and how we have encouraged others to behave it upsetting and can only perpetuate myths of what the people from that area are really like.
We saw this work fine in Egypt and Tunisia, to a degree even in Yemen. We are watching a perpetuation of the same western activities in a new arab world as we saw in the old arab world. As a person who has been to the middle east in good times and bad I find how we are behaving and how we have encouraged others to behave it upsetting and can only perpetuate myths of what the people from that area are really like.
Cologne she'll wear silver and americard, She'll drive a beetle car and beat you down at cool Canasta. And when the clothes are strewn don't be afraid of the room touch the fullness of her breast feel the love of her caress she will be your living end.
-
rice_pudding
- Mass Poster
- Posts: 1734
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:49 pm
- Location: UK
Re: Gadafi's death!
Our intentions were pretty transparent from the start. Amazing that the media fails to notice.
Once the revolution initially got going it initially looked like Gadafi would be overthrown. Up until that point the British/French government were quite taciturn, making feeble comments about how Gadafi needs to listen to his people. Once it looked like he was a goner they quickly came out to denounce him as a tyrant and encourage his overthrow. About one day later the war turned and it became apparent that in spite of the initial surge the rebels were going to get slaughtered. The immediate response from Cameron was that the international community must rally to help the people. Never mind that he had just given a major British oil supplier the middle finger while the Chinese get their check book ready
I mean consider the French response (also holding major contracts with Gadafi), when was the last time the French went in guns blazing?
Always back the winning side and if they're not winning cheat! In reality this has played out better than the Government would have imagined, leaving them in a position to renegotiate their business and even replace the business we just blew up with our own. Now we just have to kill the rebels who will oppose foreign interference.
And we wonder why relations with the middle east are rocky? Oh by the way no one mention Syria, unless the wrong side start winning
Rob
Once the revolution initially got going it initially looked like Gadafi would be overthrown. Up until that point the British/French government were quite taciturn, making feeble comments about how Gadafi needs to listen to his people. Once it looked like he was a goner they quickly came out to denounce him as a tyrant and encourage his overthrow. About one day later the war turned and it became apparent that in spite of the initial surge the rebels were going to get slaughtered. The immediate response from Cameron was that the international community must rally to help the people. Never mind that he had just given a major British oil supplier the middle finger while the Chinese get their check book ready
I mean consider the French response (also holding major contracts with Gadafi), when was the last time the French went in guns blazing?Always back the winning side and if they're not winning cheat! In reality this has played out better than the Government would have imagined, leaving them in a position to renegotiate their business and even replace the business we just blew up with our own. Now we just have to kill the rebels who will oppose foreign interference.
And we wonder why relations with the middle east are rocky? Oh by the way no one mention Syria, unless the wrong side start winning
Rob
www.rstorey.co.uk
Re: Gadafi's death!
Well sumerised Rob.
The Elephant in the room is Syria! but lets not hold our breath Syria has no oil! the only reason we will stick our nose in will be to do Israels dealing for it!
The Elephant in the room is Syria! but lets not hold our breath Syria has no oil! the only reason we will stick our nose in will be to do Israels dealing for it!
Cologne she'll wear silver and americard, She'll drive a beetle car and beat you down at cool Canasta. And when the clothes are strewn don't be afraid of the room touch the fullness of her breast feel the love of her caress she will be your living end.
Re: Gadafi's death!
Ian,
You have a good heart, brutal death is something that should never be celebrated. I understand the relief of freedom from years of a dictator's rule, but I just don't have it in me to hate that way, and I hope I never do.
Ted
You have a good heart, brutal death is something that should never be celebrated. I understand the relief of freedom from years of a dictator's rule, but I just don't have it in me to hate that way, and I hope I never do.
Ted
"The Only Two Things In Life That Make It Worth Livin"
-
Paul Wolfe
- Mass Poster
- Posts: 5272
- Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:19 am
Re: Gadafi's death!
I understand that this would be humane, but what would the punishment for a guilty verdict be? We all know Gadaffi committed horrible crimes for many years, right? Live by the sword, die by the sword.Trigger wrote:I want to see people like him on trial for human rights violations!
What is sad is the glorification of his death and the constant images of his dead body. That is what is disturbing to me. The fact that people in Libya were treat horribly and responded by killing him is understandable. Parading around and rejoicing is sad.
Sorry, Ian, but the human rights trial thing seems like a huge waste of money to me. Our world already wastes enough money that could be used to help people in need, we don't need to spend millions on a drawn out trial to confirm what we already know: the man was a dictator and the wages of sin is death. He's dead, time to move on.
-
Paul Wolfe
- Mass Poster
- Posts: 5272
- Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:19 am
Re: Gadafi's death!
I understand that this would be humane, but what would the punishment for a guilty verdict be? We all know Gadaffi committed horrible crimes for many years, right? Live by the sword, die by the sword.Paul Wolfe wrote:Trigger wrote:I want to see people like him on trial for human rights violations!
What is sad is the glorification of his death and the constant images of his dead body. That is what is disturbing to me. The fact that people in Libya were treated horribly and responded by killing him is understandable. Parading around and rejoicing is sad.
Sorry, Ian, but the human rights trial thing seems like a huge waste of money to me. Our world already wastes enough money that could be used to help people in need, we don't need to spend millions on a drawn out trial to confirm what we already know: the man was a dictator and the wages of sin is death. He's dead, time to move on.
Now, if he knew of a stash of pro-shot Randy Rhoads footage, that might have been worthy of a trial to get it out in the light...
Re: Gadafi's death!
xx123456
Last edited by Alex on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Paul Wolfe
- Mass Poster
- Posts: 5272
- Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:19 am
Re: Gadafi's death!
I would have to agree, and add Brits, Germans, Swedes, Italians, et al to that list... there are people everywhere who would see death as the solution, brutal or otherwise.Alex wrote:Sadly, I am fairly sure there are large groups of Americans that would act just the same.
In my opinion, we waste money on these trials and incarcerations. I have no problem with the trial itself, but the money thrown into televising and hotels for media and those involved etc, all that money could be used to help the homeless in any nation.
Then when the trial is over, how much does it cost to incarcerate a dictator for life? And does that make him/her a martyr for the cause and an inspiration? Death, regardless of popular belief, removes the influence in all but the most loyal followers. Six months from now, people will be saying, "Huh? Oh yeah Gadaffi was killed a while back, right?" and then go on with their lives. Just like we do with Bin Ladin... the world is just the same as it was with one less person, someone took his place and the machine kept rolling. Libya will have issues for years to come, but at least they have a chance now to change things.
Re: Gadafi's death!
xx123456
Last edited by Alex on Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.