Bin Laden

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The Flying Dutchman
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Re: Bin Laden

Post by The Flying Dutchman »

rice_pudding wrote:Oh also, they have changed the story again, apparently the SEAL's were told that they could decide whether or not to kill Bin Laden. Most well funded and sophisticated intelligence network in the world going after the worlds most wanted man, and they have changed the story how many times now? Whether or not anyone has time for conspiracies this is a complete farce.

Rob
I really wonder if they would have shown obl's picture if he was only shot in the chest and not in the head?
Afer all the effort, taking people from all over the world to Guantanamo, the thousands of people who lost their lives, vids of people getting beheaded etc, and then they decide we can't deal with a few pictures of a dead body.... :?
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Re: Bin Laden

Post by rice_pudding »

The Flying Dutchman wrote:
rice_pudding wrote:Oh also, they have changed the story again, apparently the SEAL's were told that they could decide whether or not to kill Bin Laden. Most well funded and sophisticated intelligence network in the world going after the worlds most wanted man, and they have changed the story how many times now? Whether or not anyone has time for conspiracies this is a complete farce.

Rob
I really wonder if they would have shown obl's picture if he was only shot in the chest and not in the head?
Afer all the effort, taking people from all over the world to Guantanamo, the thousands of people who lost their lives, vids of people getting beheaded etc, and then they decide we can't deal with a few pictures of a dead body.... :?
A couple of journalists, one Arab press, the other British press, both said more or less the same thing over the weekend;

The west has gone to war with the middle east, blown shit up, killed people (unintentional or not, makes no difference to the victims), peached politics, installed pro-west governments, dictators, ripped of Arab business and trade, promoted anti-eastern messages in the media and generally poked everything from Libya to Iran with a stick. Now we have killed Bin Laden.

If we release pictures of his body what are they going to say; "NOW YOU'VE MADE US REALLY MAD!"

Surely terrorist groups already have more substantial material than a picture for a recruitment drive?!
If you wanted to convince a true neutral Arab to attack the west would you;
a) show them a picture of Bin Laden
b) tell them about any of the other things listed above

P.S. had another point i wanted to make, based on a little experiment I tried, in regards to Matt's earlier post and your own regarding evidence and what we should/shouldn't believe without it, EG how much should we hold to account. But will wait till tomorrow, its late.

Rob
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Re: Bin Laden

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Dutch, Rob.

I couldn't agree more I have seen the media outlets here in Europe and all are saying the same things as you are saying, yes they write the story of BL's rise to evil but they all point to the changing detalis of the raid that removed him. I have even seen articles that ask the very same questions and discuss the credibility of the story happening inside the USA as well.

Never before has a single topic been laced with so many excuses as to why ultimate plausible proof is so impossible to provide?
I share the same agravations about the wars we have found ourselves fighting as many others but I can't think of another time in history where a continued combat has been fought with so few clear and incontravertable facts. I believe we are now expected to accept without question! I have never been that way inclined and I suggest that anyone who can should go to the Arab world and experience it and ask questions, I did and it really makes the media slant all the more difficult to swallow.

Back to the case in point and without diverting from what has been said, I say this once more.

What I have said does not distract from what Rob has said in any way shape or form

Saddam was done to death and we saw it, we believe it and none of us pity him because of the clear evidence of his crimes against humanity and what we are left with is questions regarding why he wasn't tried in the International Court.....liuttle doubt of his end.

BL, Done to death but with an ever changing cover story and no evidence appart from the un-questionable word of the US government......no proof what ever! you don't have to like Conspiracy's to realise that this is feeding them and all done by a head of state! this was such a crass error of judgement. The best that is offered by those who support this so far is beliueve what you are told, and a few insults added in a way that suggests people are just stupid to question the validty of this ever shifting tale etc! which is so weak.
And though I can't accept the excuses given for being unable to show photographs or video of the Killing I do not blame those who are of a different oppinion to me as the media bias and years of ever increasing deaths and cruelty have made blind unquestiong acceptance easier to accept.
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Re: Bin Laden

Post by rice_pudding »

Trigger, Matt, Dutch, Alex, oth, anyone...

THIS IS A LONG POST, BORKEN DOWN INTO DIFFERENT SECTIONS. I DON'T REALISTICALLY EXPECT PEOPLE TO READ THE WHOLE THING. ALSO SOME OF IT WILL PROBABLY OFFEND SOMEONE, I MAKE NO APPOLOGY FOR PRESENTING HYPOTHESIS.

I've been mulling over a couple of points brought up by Capt Matt lately. As Matt pointed out the most simple explanation is normally correct, Einstein had a similar belief and aside from his forays into quantum entanglement, it served him very well. Matt also made another good point; how much evidence do we need? How much should we question? Are we now going to question the recent British elections unless given hard evidence? I'm am not going to try to tackle these points, they are 99% watertight. So without intending to discount these excellent, concise points I would like to add some food for thought.

Benefit of the doubt;
Everyone places faith in things everyday, life would be an exhausting struggle otherwise. If you look under my avatar it states; I am based in the UK, I sign my name as Rob under posts. Anyone reading would assume I am a male, named Rob living in the UK. There is absolutely no reason to doubt that, why would I lie? But equally it's entirely possible that I could in fact be a cross-dressing Scandinavian named Clara living in France.

Should we have faith in things we can't prove? We have to, in order to function as humans, as a society. But do we place too much faith in some things? I would argue that trust, however well placed, gets in the way of logic.

EG.

The Reichstag Fire.
Before WWII the German parliament was burnt down by a young Dutch (?) communist. The Nazi's used the event to purge Germany of Communism. Historians have debated whether the Nazi's actually caused the fire or if they just took advantage of events beyond their control. No one really knows, evidence is finely balanced. And the events that followed the fire are far more important than the fire itself. But suffice to say if there are 100 Historians who say the Dutch kid did it, there are another 100 who say it was the SS.

That's a finely balanced argument. If there were a court case and 100 expert firemen claimed arson, while another 100 claimed an electrical fire, purely accidental. The jury would, on the basis of just that evidence, fail to reach a conclusion, right?

Fast forward to 9/11. (Please for the sake of reasonable debate lets remain civil)

There are hundreds, thousands of architects, structural engineers, demolitions experts etc. who openly claim the twin towers were destroyed by controlled demolitions. There have since been other experts who have offered explanations to the contrary; that the impacts from the planes were to blame. I'm reasonably sure you could find enough experts from both opinions to create an even 1000 on both sides if you wanted. Now, if we ignore all the other evidence in the debate and pretend we are men of science, we should reach the conclusion that we can't say yes or no based on the fact that there is an even disposition of evidence for both sides of the argument (1000 experts each).

In reality what would most people decide if faced with the above predicament? I'm willing to bet that most people would say the planes alone caused the demolition, even though their conclusion would be illogical under the prescribed conditions.

ANOTHER EG

My Grandparents and Churchill
Everyone knows Churchill was great why would anyone doubt that? Its a fact. no? Many revisionist historians (who by their nature have access to more information and arguably more objectivity) would disagree significantly with such a statement. I once tried to tell my Grandparents, with evidence, that Churchill wasn't quite as good as everyone says; it fell on death ears, despite hard factual evidence.

I also told my Grandparents, that the holocaust had been going on before WWII started and that the UK government knew about it. This is considered fact by all historians I know of who have studied the time-period. And it fell on death ears...

Conclusions...
Why do we believe one side of an argument if evidence is inconclusive, or even if evidence is firmly against us? Are we locked into a belief system that we don't want to have shattered? To this day every American is taught that Russians are bad, every Russian is taught that Russians are great and Americans are bad. So who is right? If you had a time machine and took a German soldier to a Nazi death camp would he suddenly say "Oh shit we're the bad guys!"? Do we all believe we are the good guys? We know in England that our politicians are dishonest (Nick Clegg Uni Fees etc.), so why do we still give them the benefit of the doubt on so much?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BIN LADEN AND 9/11

I was about to turn of my PC the other day but had five minutes to spare. So I thought I would play devils advocate. After 9/11 we found out Bin Laden was responsible. I'm not sure how exactly, it was a long time ago, but we all believed he was responsible. I decided to search for the evidence.

I searched "proof Bina Laden plotted 9/11" most of the results were about plans to attack again on the 10th anniversary of 9/11. I found one article that actualy related to 9/11, a Pakistani newspaper (which i will mention in conclusion). A little bummed out I searched again "evidence Bina Laden plotted 9/11". I found nothing. Cussing google, I retreated to wikipedia and brought up the article on Bin laden, skipping to the section titled "September 11th attacks"

Three statements exist on the page as evidence.

1. On tapes released in 2004 Bin laden admitted he plotted the attack.
2. The FBI have stated that classified evidence proves beyond doubt Bin Laden was responsible.
3. The British SIS have stated that they agree, but concede the evidence would not stand up in court.

Lastly what did the Pakistani paper say? It was an interview with Bin Laden taken shortly after 9/11 in which he denies plotting the attack and insists it was an inside job by the CIA.

A long time ago I read that the Taliban were prepared to give up Bin Laden if he were to face trial. George Bush refused the possibility of trial. Closing thought; in retrospect after 10 years of carnage, should the British people have said, "whoa... can I just see some evidence first? In case things get heated."?

Food for thought...

IF YOU READ ALL THAT THEN WOW, YOU DESERVE A PRIZE OR SOMETHING

Rob
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Re: Bin Laden

Post by Cpt Matt Sparrow »

Hi Rob

I hope you don't feel it rude my delay in writing back to a quite simply fascinating post which really illustrates the can of worms that is opened when events are really scrutinised.

Re the versions of events in general; yes It actually makes me quite exasperated on one hand, as I think how can an event, especially in our modern world, with more transparency than ever before - as well as technology too! still not be recorded accurately? With the distance we have come as humans and with so many things itemised, how can there still be these discrepancies?

As an armchair theology reader :) I do though also find it reassuring as, as humans, EVERYTHING we report, through out history and now, is never absolute. In this sense I think of truth similar to the concept of time, in that it is not absolutely defined and rigid but actually quite lucid. Depending on where it is being recorded (time and truth), it can run faster and slower in the case of time and in the case of truth in a differing version of events... yet neither is a deception, but simply a different dimension. I think it was the former archbishop Lord Carey when talking of the inconsistency of the gospels, who said that the contradictions in the recording of events made him more certain of the historical Jesus. N.B I deliberately used 'historical Jesus' as I think to suggets more means it belongs to the sticked debate up top.

So back to Osama, we can only speculate, but perhaps it isn't the subject that has gotten me thinking here, but more a societies (as reflected in a general sense on a forum) need for confirmation that things appear as they had hoped them to. I feel as a hunch that we have a trend developing of people needing what I view as excessive re assurance. This almost minor modern day psychological epidemic involves a suffering imagination, that if not fed with the information it deems as a sufficient answer to it's question, runs wild disposing the rational and. I think the most likely thing that has occurred is there have been some things tampered with for what ever reason, but not the huge evil cover up the internet communities are alluding to.

But as they say, even people suffering from paranoia do have some cause for concern too.

Matt
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Re: Bin Laden

Post by rice_pudding »

Hey Matt,

Thanks for responding with such an interesting post. No rudeness felt!
As an armchair theology reader I do though also find it reassuring as, as humans, EVERYTHING we report, through out history and now, is never absolute.


Agreed, and...
[regarding Osama...] I think the most likely thing that has occurred is there have been some things tampered with for what ever reason, but not the huge evil cover up the internet communities are alluding to.
...agreed. In fact on balance of evidence I come to the exact same conclusion for the 9/11 controversy.
back to Osama, we can only speculate, but perhaps it isn't the subject that has gotten me thinking here, but more a societies (as reflected in a general sense on a forum) need for confirmation that things appear as they had hoped them to. I feel as a hunch that we have a trend developing of people needing what I view as excessive re assurance. This almost minor modern day psychological epidemic involves a suffering imagination, that if not fed with the information it deems as a sufficient answer to it's question, runs wild disposing the rational
You are correct, no doubt about that, I know first hand that many conspirasists (Did i just make up a word?!LMAO), are IMO nuts. But fundamentally I feel I have to disagree. The problem is I don't quite know why :lol: That is more than anything why i made the "epic" post, more than anything else the most fascinating aspect of this thread is the need for confirmation, I was hoping to see what others feel.

In the context of this debate Osama's death and his crime(s); 9/11, have made me think about the Reichstag fire and Hitler's Suicide. Given the nature of debate and speculation, there are striking parallels. Although there are some critical reasons why each is appraised differently, irrespective of age.

Modern technology is most certainly used to monitor/control us, so maybe its only fair we use it to question authority. Over the years politicians have been increasingly caught out for dishonesty, lies and criminal activity. Modern technology is instrumental in this. It could merely be a snowball effect that many no longer trust. Equally sad is that so many people will over time side zealously with a particular political party, and suddenly if thy hear something bad, well that must just be spin; my mum is a recent victim of that disease... Perhaps that is at the heart of why i must disagree on this point?...

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Re: Bin Laden

Post by oth »

Trigger wrote:Dutch, Rob.
I can't think of another time in history where a continued combat has been fought with so few clear and incontravertable facts. I believe we are now expected to accept without question! I have never been that way inclined and I suggest that anyone who can should go to the Arab world and experience it and ask questions, I did and it really makes the media slant all the more difficult to swallow.

.
I was watching some show about the war and then i had a simple but earth shattering thought:the objective of war is to win it-so what is there to win in afghanistan?

It doesnt even have any worthy natural resources to rob like oil,water,minerals etc...
It boggles the mind that we havent learned from the often repeated misadventures of previous empires whove had their asses handed to them in afghanistan(Brits,russians and maybe usa).
It is called the graveyard of empires for a reason.
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Re: Bin Laden

Post by Cpt Matt Sparrow »

This is a report allegedly from Osamu's son. Members of AlQueda have also commented on his recent death too. Why woud his son and followers speak out if he either wasn't dead or died years ago..they would want to expose America not support the story

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_binladen_son_statement
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Re: Bin Laden

Post by The Flying Dutchman »

oth wrote:what is there to win in afghanistan?
Good question, ask the Russians.....! :P
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Re: Bin Laden

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Re: Bin Laden

Post by The Flying Dutchman »

:lol:
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Re: Bin Laden

Post by rice_pudding »

Could be close to the truth :mrgreen:

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Re: Bin Laden

Post by Trigger »

Been away so I will catch up and comment later, I really missed this thread.
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Re: Bin Laden

Post by Alex »

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Last edited by Alex on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bin Laden

Post by Cpt Matt Sparrow »

and the hundreds of members of Al queda that have acknowledged their leaders death recently?

Why would they lie?

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