The Religion, Atheism and Science Discussion

[McLowery]

But if there were no God, would the flame of life hard wire us with fundamental morals? I believe these morals exist within us because we were created by God. One does not have to believe in God for Him to be real, He is real anyway, whether people choose to believe in Him or not.

As for going off to war, belief in God cannot exist without belief in Satan. God tells us Lucifer was cast out of Heaven and creates havoc in this world specifically to cast doubt on the existence of God. So, through Satan (Lucifer), wars take place and someone has to act as a soldier to protect the innocent. It is a sacrifice the soldier makes for the good of others. God knows the soldier is making a sacrifice for the good of the innocent, so if the soldiers asks forgiveness for killing - as justified as that killing may be - God will forgive him for the sin of killing another human being.

That is what I believe to be true.

Wow Paul! War is amoral, period. There is no such thing as a righteous war, good war, needed war or honorable war. Mankind has been enslaved to serve the war machine since the dawn of time and it has always been the uneducated poor who are sent off to die by the ruling elite. The ideology of war is an ideology of exploitation that calls for using force to determine an outcome. "God" has been the fulcrum point of many many wars and like I said before if this god is real it thrives on mans destruction and misery. That is why I KNOW THERE IS NO GOD. Humankind and its actions unto itself is proof positive that god does not exist. To actually think that a soldier is protecting the innocent during war is quite naive. Do a little digging into the Iraq war, see how many Iraqi's have been sluaghtered by the U.S. and the U.K., wholesale and sytematically. How many innocent people are in the 1 million lives destroyed by the invasion of Iraq? The suicide rate of U.S. military combat soldiers of Iraq and Afghanistan is at a record high since Vietnam. If that is how your god forgives a soldier for doing his "duty" I want nothing to do with it.

There is a great quote I read: "Mankind must put an end to war, before war puts an end to mankind." JFK (Killed for just such thinking.)

[Zakk Daniels]

Hi Frank

I am sorry you may see something that you don't see as bonafide (?), not only in passion for theology (I love the study of all religions), but also fascination of the historical vs the Biblical Jesus.

I think the more people that are better informed (and that means every rock turned over debate wise) then people can make accurate choices.

Alot of people reading may not know about the arguments for Christianity through design, the other Gospels that are not included in the bible etc. Equally I think it is important tp present as many doubts as possible.

I know plenty of people that attend our local Church St Johns and have never considered any of the points mentioned in these threads.

It is something they have been fed as a child, grown up with and then as they have got to be an adult just lazily accepted. I find the idea that, that is faith as insulting to such a passionate word as faith!

Assuming they have average intelligence that is not faith, but lazyness.

My belief here is like the Bible says but adding the word brain...he who has a brain let them think!

Godbless

Matt

ps I find the comment about videos etc a bit sarcastic. Did you mean it like that?

pps the last sentence did you mean that 'shouldn't' concern or at least baffle you? If it should concern me why would it worry me?

Hello Matthew, my Friend,

I am not lazy, I truly believe in Christ as my savior. To me Faith is a feeling as well as a belief. I feel Christ, I pray every day and go to church every Sunday. I am a PROUD Roman Catholic. Peter was told by Christ to build his church upon this stone, and that is the Roman Catholic Church. I completely respect you my brotha, and I respect your decision to not be sure of certain things pertaining to Christ. You also kick FUCKIN ASS ON THE GUITAR!!!! I think what Paul, Frank, Nicole and I are saying about faith is: that you just know and feel it!! At least that is how I feel. Remember that no matter what, Jesus is always there if you want to talk to him. I talk to him every day. I talk to him like any other person. It is fucking cool to have a Kick-Ass Savior like Christ who does not care if you are black, white, green or a chick or a dude. He accepts you no matter what!! Rejoice and Kick Ass for Christ Baby!!!

Matthew, you are truly a fuckin' great guy, so please do not think I am passing judgement on you or dismissing your feelings. I am not.

Rock On!!

p.s. In no way am I well versed in scripture. I am just telling you how I perceive Jesus and my faith.

[McLowery]

M, what would be proof enough for you to accept Christianity?
I'm not saying that cause I have this secret desire to convert you or anything, but I am just curious...I wonder what it would take to get doubters to believe.

I would like to know just one thing about christianity as a religion, not a philosophy.

How is it possible for Jesus Christ to teach his followers the golden rule, then at the same time require them to hand over their free will to him and worship him as not just a god but THE God? This is the ultimate oxymoron created by the morphing of Jesus into the one and only true course to salvation. It also destroys any concept of free will because if the christians are right, and the jury is still eons away from a decision, then every single human being would chose Jesus as their god, for who in reality really wants to burn in hell? (the eradication of free will.)

[McLowery]

A quick note or two on faith, but first my favorite quote on faith:

"There are those who scoff at the school boy,
calling him frivolous and shallow. Yet it was the school boy who said,
Faith is believing what you know ain't so." - Mark Twain


Old style faith is just that, old. New style faith has taken a long and treacherous journey, but it has made it to the modern age and hopefully will continue to grow as the old style faith fades into oblivion. Today free thinkers put faith in highly scrutinized theories and expeirements. Then with a real foundation of knowledge on any given subject they can expand their know how until the subject is mastered. Then with the faith they have built upon they have the choice of helping mankind with the knowledge or hindering him. Unfortunately the hindering of mankind has been, just like old style faith, used to control and exploit humanity.

We learned that the world was round, the earth orbits the sun and the sun orbits the galaxy because brave people faced the wrath of the church by standing in defiance because they knew what they observed proved so. We got to the moon by scrutinizing very accurate theories, making them even more accurate not by shoving 3 guys into a can, lighting a fuse and then saying a quick prayer hoping they get there in one piece. Knowledge is the only thing mankind can truly expand upon because he has the gift of being able to write down through language his trials and tribulations for following genterations. Some may say that our technological advancement is going to be our undoing, or is it that persons using antiquated superstitious thinking being allowed to be our world leaders, ignorant of reality, that declare our end in the name of some deity that will mandate that decision.


Alright boys and girls get out your torches and pitch forks, bibles and crosses and most important of all, your children and get over to watch this look into the coming reform of christianity:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... jesus+camp


Yee Haw!! Now I thought those snake dancers were koo-koo for coco-puffs.

[NicDots]

M, what would be proof enough for you to accept Christianity?
I'm not saying that cause I have this secret desire to convert you or anything, but I am just curious...I wonder what it would take to get doubters to believe.

I would like to know just one thing about christianity as a religion, not a philosophy.

How is it possible for Jesus Christ to teach his followers the golden rule, then at the same time require them to hand over their free will to him and worship him as not just a god but THE God? This is the ultimate oxymoron created by the morphing of Jesus into the one and only true course to salvation. It also destroys any concept of free will because if the christians are right, and the jury is still eons away from a decision, then every single human being would chose Jesus as their god, for who in reality really wants to burn in hell? (the eradication of free will.)

Well, I don't think there's any oxymoron at all. While some Christians do not believe in free will, I do, so I can't speak for those who do not.
But I believe in free will while at the same time, believe that Jesus/God know everything, including our future actions.
And again, people should not put ALL Christians in a box as not ALL Christians believe that all non Christians burn in hell or believe in no free will. I know I am not the only one who stands as a good example of that. There are millions more as well.

[frank]

as for the last paragraph, go back and re-read it. you will find five believers separated by miles and years with no personal knowledge of each other. yet we speak with a certainty and conviction. we KNOW Him, matt. perhaps that's all the "proof" or "evidence" you need to consider that He is who He said He is. He yearns for a relationship with you.

[McLowery]

I wasn't trying to be condescending Frank, just giving my perception on this topic. I don't feel superior to anyone here and if I made anyone feel like I was putting myself above them realize I feel far from that. We are all here to figure out certain facets of life and hopefully leave a better place for our offspring. I have very strong views on religion and faith or the lack thereof and I don't mind standing proud in my secular atheism just as a christian stands proud in their salvation through Jesus Christ.

[frank]

Hi Frank

I am sorry you may see something that you don't see as bonafide (?), not only in passion for theology (I love the study of all religions), but also fascination of the historical vs the Biblical Jesus.

no matt, it is i who should apologize. i was under the impression that you were searching for real answers . carry on contemplating your navel.

ps I find the comment about videos etc a bit sarcastic. Did you mean it like that?

pps the last sentence did you mean that 'shouldn't' concern or at least baffle you? If it should concern me why would it worry me?

it was meant to be very sarcastic.

as for the last paragraph, go back and re-read it. you will find five believers separated by miles and years with no personal knowledge of each other. yet we speak with a certainty and conviction. we KNOW Him, matt. perhaps that's all the "proof" or "evidence" you need to consider that He is who He said He is. He yearns for a relationship with you.

[NicDots]

As an atheist, what are your views on after life? Do you believe one exists? Where does the soul go?
A good friend of mine is culturally Jewish, but is an atheist. She believes in no afterlife, no nothing. I asked her what she was going to tell her kids (when she has them) where you go when you die. Her answer was "Good question. I can't really tell them that you rot forever, could I?"

[NicDots]

Well I never really thought that consciousness continued either...but I am just curious as how you would explain to a little kid what happened when you died or if someone close to them died. I remember being a little kid and being told after I got home from Kindergarten that my Sunday School teacher had been shot and killed. This of course made me very sad as she was a lovely woman. My Dad told me that I'd get to see her in heaven. I remember thinking "What if she doesn't recognize me or what if I can't find her?" But I imagine explaining consciousness to a 5 year old would be tough.
Have you ever heard of the book What Dreams May Come? It's also a movie with Robin Williams...it's about the afterlife and being in love in the afterlife. It' a great flick that you should check out, Lord Dweebshire.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

Well I never really thought that consciousness continued either...but I am just curious as how you would explain to a little kid what happened when you died or if someone close to them died. I remember being a little kid and being told after I got home from Kindergarten that my Sunday School teacher had been shot and killed. This of course made me very sad as she was a lovely woman. My Dad told me that I'd get to see her in heaven. I remember thinking "What if she doesn't recognize me or what if I can't find her?" But I imagine explaining consciousness to a 5 year old would be tough.
Have you ever heard of the book What Dreams May Come? It's also a movie with Robin Williams...it's about the afterlife and being in love in the afterlife. It' a great flick that you should check out, Lord Dweebshire.

I will watch it then.

I still can't watch Love Actually without feeling very sad in some places. Even the opening narative chokes me uo!

When I was under 5 I rememebr someone saying one day i would die and I was inconsulable

I think for a very young child I would say they have gone to another place and that I didn't know where because I haven't been either yet.

Mind you I have a terrible Lord Dweebshire trait of putting my foor in it so it may on the spur of the moment handled quite differently!!


Off to teach bar bar Black sheep for 8 hours now but have a great day everyone and this beats talking about who is best Randy or Eddie

[highpriestess]

A quick note or two on faith, but first my favorite quote on faith:

"There are those who scoff at the school boy,
calling him frivolous and shallow. Yet it was the school boy who said,
Faith is believing what you know ain't so." - Mark Twain


Old style faith is just that, old. New style faith has taken a long and treacherous journey, but it has made it to the modern age and hopefully will continue to grow as the old style faith fades into oblivion. Today free thinkers put faith in highly scrutinized theories and expeirements. Then with a real foundation of knowledge on any given subject they can expand their know how until the subject is mastered. Then with the faith they have built upon they have the choice of helping mankind with the knowledge or hindering him. Unfortunately the hindering of mankind has been, just like old style faith, used to control and exploit humanity.

We learned that the world was round, the earth orbits the sun and the sun orbits the galaxy because brave people faced the wrath of the church by standing in defiance because they knew what they observed proved so. We got to the moon by scrutinizing very accurate theories, making them even more accurate not by shoving 3 guys into a can, lighting a fuse and then saying a quick prayer hoping they get there in one piece. Knowledge is the only thing mankind can truly expand upon because he has the gift of being able to write down through language his trials and tribulations for following genterations. Some may say that our technological advancement is going to be our undoing, or is it that persons using antiquated superstitious thinking being allowed to be our world leaders, ignorant of reality, that declare our end in the name of some deity that will mandate that decision.


Alright boys and girls get out your torches and pitch forks, bibles and crosses and most important of all, your children and get over to watch this look into the coming reform of christianity:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... jesus+camp


Yee Haw!! Now I thought those snake dancers were koo-koo for coco-puffs.

i was going to refrain from ever posting an opinion in this thread again, to abstain from having my opinions belittled into verb tenses and capitalization from those who can't handle a dissenting opinion... BUT.... i feel very, very strongly that the post, in it's entirety deserves kudos! if that makes me an "angry person" so fucking be it.

[highpriestess]

as for the last paragraph, go back and re-read it. you will find five believers separated by miles and years with no personal knowledge of each other. yet we speak with a certainty and conviction. we KNOW Him, matt. perhaps that's all the "proof" or "evidence" you need to consider that He is who He said He is. He yearns for a relationship with you.

in all fairness, frank, i can name five people separated by OCEANS who claim to be abducted by aliens and give IDENTICAL details of their encounters and descriptions, etc. This gets thrown into the "National Enquirer pile of bullshit" but not the ideals of those who ask everyone else to have faith in something that, to me, is equally as fantastic of a tale.

The fact that a group of people believe something they were raised to believe and that was passed down through cultural tradition, even though they have never met... is not any more spectacular to me than the stories of the alien abductees.

now bear in mind that I am in no way commenting on anything else you posted, nor am i making a mockery towards it, i am strictly speaking of this one line in this one post.

As i said earlier, in a post i subsequently went and deleted, due to the fact that my capitalization and verb tense was an issue to the Puritans *snickers* (hey, man, tit for tat... if the video and audio sarcasm cannot be misconstrued as angriness, and even be applauded...then most certainly, you god fearing individuals would NEVER take it upon yourselves to pass judgment on ME lest you be judged yourselves... riiiiight?) - I digress, as i stated in a non remaining post "anything that gives you faith and gets you through (even if getting you through is your belief in the after life, to clarify for the two who picked that apart) is VALID. that's whats it all about. I think even Nicdots eluded to that in one of her posts, almost verbatim, what i said in that respect in one of her posts which was posted from a christian point of veiw, mine was a pagan point of view.

You've all basically, no matter how much science and scripture you post.. have ALL (there's those goddamn caps) come back and down and ended at the same thing. basic moral foundation. Paul finds that his is inspired by his Christ. He is entitled to that. If that's what makes him a good person, then it has served it's purpose. Matthew finds that it comes with human nature totally unrelated to Christ. he is entitled to that and his views have served HIS purpose. Others find that it is cultural. Hey, if it keeps them in line, THAT is valid.

What if you're ALL right.?!?!? Now i do not claim to be an authority of Christianity, and correct me if i'm wrong, but isnt the general consensus that God is all? God is everything? The Alpha and the Omega? So my question has been all along - is it possible that you are ALL right? just entertain that idea for a bit. God surely wouldn't have given us the ability to evolve and grow and become more and more intelligent if he had NO PURPOSE in mind, right? what if the true test of God IS to get to the point where you question, and you seek answers and you quest for more? Wouldn't THAT explain the whole point in death and moving on to another realm of existence? because you completed the task at hand in a physical form and have moved on to bigger and better lessons?!?!?

we do not know for sure. you feel you do, and that is VALID. you are fulfilled, and thats the ultimate goal of the soul. Some people question because the blind faith thing just doesnt fulfill them, and they may be on a different path. But who are you to say that it is any less decreed by God? maybe it is not the free thinkers who are lacking the faith here. God has a plan, right. I've even heard the words "pre-destined" brought up. Your questioning someones decision to question, may very well be questioning God himself. Who are you to say? (you in the theoretical sense for those who think i need to add ass kissing disclaimers to my posts). And isn't THAT what you've all been so adamantly standing your ground about through the whole thread? the questioning of faith?

I, like zakk, cant quote books and scriptures, but i know how i feel and what i think. these are just my thoughts.

I will not interject anymore. I just wanted to lay that out there.

Thank you, please drive thru

[highpriestess]

WAIT. i also have one more question. and go back through the thread if you must, but why is it that the non-Christians are the ones who keep having to apologize in advance for possibly stepping on anyones toes? what made the Christians feelings/ideals/thoughts/opinion/beliefs any more important. we're all equal in God's eyes right?

Methinks those who preach should practice.

[Ritchie]

Me thinks those who preach should shut their fuckin' mouths !