The Religion, Atheism and Science Discussion

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:53 am

siro_angel wrote: Two instances of Me Verses Christianity.

I remember when I was at school, a year before i left, the Religious Education teacher asked

"God, is he male or female?"

so I put my hand up, after hearing the answers consist of "Male" why? "Just because it says so in the bible" from the other pupils, I said.

"God is male"

the teacher asked,

"Why?"

my response?

"God is male because if he was female, God would be known as Goddess"

which resulted to her going "Woooo" "someone's smart" in a sarcastic tone

Most Christian scholars say that God is neither male or female. He needn't be either as he does not procreate (at least in that sense).
In the Bible, it's a "he" because that is a rule of grammar in English and other languages. If you are unsure of a sex, you are not supposed to put "he or she" you put "he." Don't ask me why it's the rule, but it is. I was told that in middle school and have never forgotten cause it was such a bizarre thing.

This thread does make me think of how the Bible was compiled...The Council of Nicea and The Council of Carthage would have been interesting to have seen in real life. I wonder how the men at these meetings decided what was what!
I do wish my brother had internet connection. He is quite the Christian scholar and would have found this fascinating.

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:17 am

highpriestess wrote: i do wish that MOST christians would not be so judgmental about people who walk a different path.

I ALSO find it kind of fucked-up that here it is 2008 and we're STILL fighting holy wars. *sigh*

Yes, I have to admit that I sometimes feel really embarrassed to be affiliated with some Christians, especially the angry, hateful ones. I don't know why some waste so much energy on hating people who are different than they are...

"He who hates his brother is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life." 1 John 3:15
It's a verse I try to keep in my mind everyday.
Believe me, I'm not a WWJD bracelet wearing, youth group attending, Jars of Clay loving Christian.
But I am one, nevertheless. At least, I consider myself more Christian in my beliefs than anything else.
I just hope that you as well as others don't forget us normal Christians exist as well.

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:22 am

WRONG!!!!

Blergh, not a big fan of Christian rock n roll at all.
If it's Christian music, it's Bach or nothing!

siro_angel · Post by **siro_angel** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:26 am

lol

I remember attending a overnight lock in at church when I was at scouts (and yes I am aware that scouts are a christian based organisation. but it's open to all religions)

When I was there, they introduced a live act as the most heaviest metal band you'll ever see!

I was like "Woooooooo!"

Then they came on, and sung psalms to distorted guitars.

I must admit, I was disapointed.

Simon

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:28 am

Whip Your Damn Ass?

I LOVE IT PAUL!

Post by **Trigger** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:36 am

I enjoy frank exchanges here, like HP I am a non believer and most of the time people like us are treated with respect even if we bring on the big fights. I have lots of faith in politics which is where I realise my own faith is to be found, however I can see the point in pagan beliefs because they are more conected to the earth and the seasons.
Keep up the debate

Zakk Daniels · Post by **Zakk Daniels** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:34 am

Paul Wolfe wrote:Simon, not many things in this life are anything but a "members only" endeavor. For example, in the "Randy Rhoads community" if your were to say that Brad Paisley is a better guitar player than Randy was, you'd be attacked mercilessly by the majority. "Members" of the community know that Randy is to be considered king and all others are pretenders to the throne, non-members of the community must accept this to be fully accepted into the fold.

Where Christianity is concerned, it is called Christianity because it's members are followers of Christ. So, of course, it's a members only "club". If you don't believe in and follow Christ, you simply are not Christian.

As for the idea that any belief system that brings you comfort being valid, that is all well and good in an attempt to survive this life. Christians believe there is more after this life and to move into that next world we must follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anyone who doesn't believe that is free to believe as they choose. At the moment of their death - and not a minute sooner - they will find out if their belief or the Christian belief is the truth.

In the Bible we are told that God created Adam and Eve and He placed them in the Garden of Eden. He gave them a set of rules to follow that consisted of not eating the fruit of one particular tree. He also gave them the freedom of choice to decide for themselves whether they wanted to obey that rule or not. They exercised that right of free choice and chose to not abide by that rule. The consequence was to lose the Garden of Eden and to be cast out of a world of perfection into the world we know of now.

To this day we are each given the freedom to choose our beliefs. God does not force Himself on us. He is presented to us and we are given the freedom to believe, doubt or reject outright. That freedom comes with the price of accepting the consequences of our choice. If you choose to reject Jesus Christ and on the day of your death it turns out that you were wrong, then you must accept the consequences of that choice. The same holds true for Believers of Christ. If, at the time of our death, we find out Jesus was a myth, we must accept that.

Christianity is based on faith which is defined as being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (Hebrews 11:1) Zakk is a perfect example of that faith, he just knows Jesus is God. I am the same way. You are all free to discuss and decide for yourselves, but ultimately you won't be given proof until you pass into the next life. That is why you are asked to accept this on faith.

Finally Simon, your school project was offensive to some because you were making fun of something many people hold as the center of their lives. Muslims have been known to kill people who make fun of their beliefs in such ways. It is always good to treat such subjects with respect, because if you want respect from others, you must give respect.

AMEN!!! Paul has hit it on the head!!! Very Well Said!!

I will pour you a soda Paul, and myself a beer and we can relish in the fact that we are Christians!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers!!!

frank · Post by **frank** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:30 pm

mmm. okay. let's say that Christ travelled to india, or africa...or the orient. what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? i'm not being sarcastic. i'm asking, what real significance would you draw from this speculation? Jesus was jewish...very jewish. his "world view" and focus was very provincial.

consider the conversation between the Savior and the syrophoenician woman. she had come to him asking healing for her daughter:

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt. 15:24

:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying Lord, help me.

:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the childrens bread, and to cast it to dogs.

:27 And she said, Truth, Lord : yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith : be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

in other words, the Lord refused to heal her daughter simply because she was not of the house of israel. it was only her persistence that wore Him down. hardly the behavior of a mystic/holy man.[/quote]

Ah.. But Jesus offered the "covenant with god" to Jew and Gentile alike. This showed a sense of universality for all of humanity (an Eastern tempering to his personal philosophy) and this specific offering in his teaching is the main reason the Jews wanted him crucified.

McLowery · Post by **McLowery** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:47 am

frank wrote:mmm. okay. let's say that Christ travelled to india, or africa...or the orient. what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? i'm not being sarcastic. i'm asking, what real significance would you draw from this speculation? Jesus was jewish...very jewish. his "world view" and focus was very provincial.

consider the conversation between the Savior and the syrophoenician woman. she had come to him asking healing for her daughter:

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt. 15:24

:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying Lord, help me.

:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the childrens bread, and to cast it to dogs.

:27 And she said, Truth, Lord : yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith : be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

in other words, the Lord refused to heal her daughter simply because she was not of the house of israel. it was only her persistence that wore Him down. hardly the behavior of a mystic/holy man.

Ah.. But Jesus offered the "covenant with god" to Jew and Gentile alike. This showed a sense of universality for all of humanity (an Eastern tempering to his personal philosophy) and this specific offering in his teaching is the main reason the Jews wanted him crucified.

McLowery · Post by **McLowery** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:11 am

Trigger wrote:I enjoy frank exchanges here, like HP I am a non believer and most of the time people like us are treated with respect even if we bring on the big fights. I have lots of faith in politics which is where I realise my own faith is to be found, however I can see the point in pagan beliefs because they are more conected to the earth and the seasons.
Keep up the debate

I agree with you Trig, I believe mankind's salvation lies within him shedding off his security blankets (god, prejudices, hate, and fear to name a few) so the chance for the human race to truly come to a peaceful accord with itself can be given a real chance to take hold. Our externalization of the things we should claim as our own and take responsibility for allows us to easily bring corruption into our actions, thus rotting society from the inside out. It would be a lot harder to do if we all took responsibility for our own actions and our own ideas instead of pawning the guilt off on "god" and blaming the reason on the "devil". I am a follower of Lenin in this regard, I believe man himself is the only thing there is to rely on and that, IMO, weighs a hell of a lot heavier on how I make my desicions in life as opposed to bringing fairy tale elements into an already complex picture.

frank · Post by **frank** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:15 am

mmm. okay. let's say that Christ travelled to india, or africa...or the orient. what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? i'm not being sarcastic. i'm asking, what real significance would you draw from this speculation?

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:44 pm

frank wrote:mmm. okay. let's say that Christ travelled to india, or africa...or the orient. what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? i'm not being sarcastic. i'm asking, what real significance would you draw from this speculation?

Hi Frank

Huge significance...

Firstly the same places in India that mention St Isha (Jesus) also mention him surviving the crucifixion and claim he died in Kashmir after fathering children and marrying.

Matt

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:54 pm

Here is a video of the atheist Richard Dawkins

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5310561251

Matt

frank · Post by **frank** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:22 pm

i'm watching your video as i write this. i find it interesting that dawkins is such a devoted evangelist for atheism. why devote energy to something that simply doesn't exist? his arguments are weak and laughable btw. he erects a caricature of christianity which he then mocks. i could go line for line with him and i'm not even a theologian.

frank.

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:39 pm

Matthew wrote:Science and religion are incompatible.

Well DUH. Not to you Matt, but Dawkins.
If they are incompatible, why do so many atheists insist on disproving religion with something that is no way compatible with it?
You wouldn't do a Proof Problem in Geometry by assessing the number of vowels!
Anyway, if atheists cling so firmly to science and logic, they shouldn't be atheists at all. They should have arrived at the conclusion of "Who knows? I've never died and have never seen what happens next."
Some will come up with "Where's the proof for God? There is no proof, therefore there is no God."
No proof is not proof. They are nowhere near the same thing.
The reason why I have trouble respecting atheism is that their rules are fine for them, but not other religions. Atheists can claim their is no God without proof but religions can NOT claim their IS a God without proof?