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Cpt Matt Sparrow
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Post by Cpt Matt Sparrow »

Hi Nicole

My parents raised me Anglican but never forced me to believe anything in particular.

My belief in debate is that it brings out so much, and helps people (and me!!) learn more!! Through questions and answers (even seemingly negative ones) I believe so much can be learned-even if not apparant at first :)

I have attended many, many different churhes since about 14 years old (all off my own back), I have also in my life embraced the way of random chance after reading Luke Reinhardts 'The Dice Man' too...

I think the brain and the soul are confused alot.

Things are way more complicated than people think.

Strap a loving person to a table and inject him/her with the right chemicals and their mood can change to many things...paranoid/angry/childish/lovijng etc...

I reserve the right to doubt and also to stay passioante

Matt
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NicDots
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Post by NicDots »

I think that's great that your folks never "made you" anything. Like I said, most people I know that hate religion were raised like that, more often than not in a RC home. Forcing your kid to go to church only turns them OFF from it.
My parents never made me go anywhere or do anything that I didn't want to do, not that they could anyway. I spent my life going to a nice mixture of churches and temples on my own behalf, just cause I found religion interesting. Now that I am older I have taken the beliefs and philosophy and made my own personal religion that makes me happy. :)

Matt, if you are ever to come to California, I have some really sweet temples to take you to. The temple in LA that my mom used to go to is especially magnificent.
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Post by Cpt Matt Sparrow »

Nicole

I have faith that one day we will meet..I really do.

When I do go to Church I love the sermons but the hymns not my thing really :)

I read the Bible and the Upanishads alot. I find complete clear and un vague truth in the ways of the Dalia Lama. I think I will have to risk the flames of hades licking my English white but and be an eveil fuck and worship God, Science, Logic and Zen Buddhism

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frank
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Post by frank »

matthew wrote:My faith would kick in if every damn book was pretty much identical. Dates tallied up, all references made perfect sense etc.
if every book was identical and everything tallied up it wouldn't require faith now would it? i suppose photos and video would help too! :wink:
Last edited by frank on Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NicDots
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Post by NicDots »

frank wrote:
matthew wrote:My faith would kick in if every damn book was pretty much identical. Dates tallied up, all references made perfect sense etc.
if every book was identical and everything tallied up it wouldn't require faith now would it? i suppose photos and video would help too! :wink:

LOL, well said and good point.
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NicDots
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Post by NicDots »

M, what would be proof enough for you to accept Christianity?
I'm not saying that cause I have this secret desire to convert you or anything, but I am just curious...I wonder what it would take to get doubters to believe.
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Post by Cpt Matt Sparrow »

NicDots wrote:M, what would be proof enough for you to accept Christianity?
I'm not saying that cause I have this secret desire to convert you or anything, but I am just curious...I wonder what it would take to get doubters to believe.
Excellent question. I have no idea.

Matt
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Post by Cpt Matt Sparrow »

Something to notice to do with our respective countries by the way..

a bible basher in the UK is someone inetersted/inspired by it. It occured to me that on internet forms 'bashing' something is used as a word derate it...

don't know why that came in my mind..it just did!!
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Post by McLowery »

Paul Wolfe wrote:I understand this point of view, and I agree that it is easy to put the blame for everything on a higher power... however, I also feel that without a belief in a higher power - an authority to answer to - there is no reason for decency and morality in this world. If there are no eternal consequences, they why should I not just kill you to get what I want? Who's to decide what is 'right' and 'wrong'? And why is something 'right' and something else 'wrong'?
This is a good statement Paul. It opens up a couple of the foundational issues of morality and how we should fit this morality into our decision making throughout life. If mankind went about it's business day to day in a world where there was no idea or concept of a higher power do you really think that chaos would reign? The flame of life itself, I believe, hard wires fundamental morals that are universal with all of mankind. Killing other human beings is considered non-conducive to leading a good life and the problems people face after doing so shows how such activity tends to breakdown reason and security in the mind of the people doing the killing. I am not talking about individuals who are murderers where their mental capacity may be in question here. I will use as an example a naive soldier who goes off to war with visions of granduer and honor. When the war is over and the young soldier returns home life for him has changed into a world of depression and isolation. He has done and seen things that his family and the people around him could never even begin to understand. This example used in my hypothetical realm of mankind where there is no sense of higher power would be the same for the soldier.

If there is a higher power then surely the young man who is going to become a soldier would realize this decision is foolish and destructive for him and the rest of humanity and not go off to war. If the higher power was somehow connected to our psyche we'd all come to moral conclusions.

Right and wrong are concepts that most of the time are dictated by society. Something right in one culture is absolutely wrong in another. When right and wrong begin to take an actual role in moral decision making is when I believe that they also begin to be universally agreed upon. When we are faced with how we should go through this life together, groups of people whose ideas are similar begin to form and these said groups begin to create laws and therefore crimes within their community. This is pretty much how history shows how we have come to this point in our evolution. When stranger groups come in contact with each other, cultural differences usually are acceptable. The issues that seem to break comunications down so badly that war breaks out between groups have been territorial disputes, god disputes and leader disputes. The god dispute is still a very valid issue when it comes to doing the wrong thing morally. An individuals belief in one doctrine can give them the "strength" they need to destroy others who believe in a different doctrine. This is a vice-versa problem too. If there is truly a higher power, or should I say ONE higher power then surely ALL of mankind would follow whatever this higher power deemed "right" for us. We couldn't break down our reasoning to the point of violence to one another if this higher power were communicating to us or individual leaders among us. Surely the fear of god would be ultimately true and we couldn't make amoral decisions. But the opposite is true, IMO, society says there is this higher power but the leaders and even the people preaching the laws of this higher power don't truly believe in this, therefore the idea of conquering their neighbor and claiming their new found territory was right and ok. Even the differences in how each side viewed this higher power is used to rally support for the invasion, but it is only used as propaganda for the ignorant and is not believed in by the creators of said propaganda. I think this is how it has been since the dawn of written history, unless the higher power thrives on destruction and misery.
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Post by McLowery »

frank wrote:
McLowery wrote:Ah.. But Jesus offered the "covenant with god" to Jew and Gentile alike. This showed a sense of universality for all of humanity (an Eastern tempering to his personal philosophy) and this specific offering in his teaching is the main reason the Jews wanted him crucified.
nope. jesus was put to death for claiming to be the son of God.

frank.
This was the actual crime they used to sentence Jesus to death. The sanhedron (sp) was irritateted with Jesus' actions and teachings for sometime and several times tried to openly trick him into a corner. Why were they doing this? Their sphere of influence was being threatened. Even today Jews balk at the idea that a "gentile" has any place with god. Jewish individuals who have become christian see this also as a major issue as to why the Jews didn't accept Christ as the messiah. So I guess we could just accept what the bible says and believe that Jesus was crucified because he was a blasphemer and not put into question if there was any kind of power struggle going on behind the scenes. Usually this isn't the case with anything let alone something that puts a man to death because of it.
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Post by McLowery »

Matthew wrote:I know Frank disagrees with me here but I think it is possible to believe in the way of Jesus and be inspired by his compassion without believing in any of the miracles as literal.
I believe this also Matt, and I am a pure atheist. There is nothing wrong or misleading with the philosophy of Jesus and if more people lived life trying to follow this philosophy and less people tried to use it as the thinkings of a god, humankind might find peace with itself a little easier. I've seen many men walk on water, hell even I myself have done so many times. Just because it was the middle of winter and I was on a frozen lake doesn't mean I wasn't walking on it. :) Miracle schmiracle I say, maybe in the vein of Tony Clifton, the real meat of christianity is in the golden rule not the decorations such as miracles and happenings.
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Post by Paul Wolfe »

But if there were no God, would the flame of life hard wire us with fundamental morals? I believe these morals exist within us because we were created by God. One does not have to believe in God for Him to be real, He is real anyway, whether people choose to believe in Him or not.

As for going off to war, belief in God cannot exist without belief in Satan. God tells us Lucifer was cast out of Heaven and creates havoc in this world specifically to cast doubt on the existence of God. So, through Satan (Lucifer), wars take place and someone has to act as a soldier to protect the innocent. It is a sacrifice the soldier makes for the good of others. God knows the soldier is making a sacrifice for the good of the innocent, so if the soldiers asks forgiveness for killing - as justified as that killing may be - God will forgive him for the sin of killing another human being.

That is what I believe to be true.
Last edited by Paul Wolfe on Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Paul Wolfe »

As for going off to war, belief in God cannot exist without belief in Satan. God tells us Lucifer was cast out of Heaven and creates havoc in this world specifically to cast doubt on the existence of God. So, through Satan (Lucifer), wars take place and someone has to act as a soldier to protect the innocent. It is a sacrifice the soldier makes for the good of others. God knows the soldier is making a sacrifice for the good of the innocent, so if the soldiers asks forgiveness for killing - as justified as that killing may be - God will forgive him for the sin of killing another human being.

That is what I believe to be true.
Last edited by Paul Wolfe on Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by shanic »

Paul Wolfe wrote:As for going off to war, belief in God cannot exist without belief in Satan. God tells us Lucifer was cast out of Heaven and creates havoc in this world specifically to cast doubt on the existence of God. So, through Satan (Lucifer), wars take place and someone has to act as a soldier to protect the innocent. It is a sacrifice the soldier makes for the good of others. God knows the soldier is making a sacrifice for the good of the innocent, so if the soldiers asks forgiveness for killing - as justified as that killing may be - God will forgive him for the sin of killing another human being.

That is what I believe to be true.
Paul I’m sorry but that is just insane!!!! Killing is killing and to say that it’s in the name of god? Hahahha if that is the truth god can go fuck himself!!! What if someone is the solder for what you consider an in just cause, is he forgiven? Who is right and wrong when it comes to war is not that clear cut now days, if it ever really was. But by your post I’m guessing that if you kill for god its OK? History has many tyrants that have done just that.

Morals are different in every society and they change with the years they are not handed down by god they are created and maintained by culture.
If as you say that god gave us morals then would they not be set in concrete, as god is infallible there would be no need for us to change our morals because he would get it right the first time.

I’m sorry don’t mean to sound angry I’m still laughing at the killing for god bit.
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Post by Cpt Matt Sparrow »

I am baffled too and I don't think any quotes ar necessary.

To me killing is wrong full stop. God doesn't take sides in my book and thinking he does is not 'unchristian' in the criteria Paul has set out, but in my interpretation of God/love...un Godly..

Matt
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