The Religion, Atheism and Science Discussion

[McLowery]

I hate death metal personally, the riffage is pretty ok sometimes but the double bass machine gun approach is cliche now. It's the vocals, if you could call them that, I just find death metal vocals harmonically offensive (maybe that is the point, I don't know) but I heard some death metal a while back and a dude told me it was a christian band. Forgot the name but I thought, Christian Death Metal??? doesn't even sound right. I can understand the vocal onslaught when the typical subject matter is what it is in death metal but what in the world would the christian subject matter be? I would try to figure it out if I could listen to more than a couple of minutes of it. lol

[shanic]

Mr McLowery, Frank I am shocked at both of you! Both of you have shown the ability to reason with quite in-depth insight.

Can you honestly not see that Christians have the perfect lineage to be playing death metal, let’s take a logical view at the material that both offer.

Death metal = Hell and eternal suffering ,
Christianity = hell and eternal suffering
Therefore
Death metal = Christianity.

Has not the binding of Christians to god’s word been though the threat of eternal damnation?

All said while laughing and tongue firmly in check.

What is the purpose of lyrics that can only be understood if you read the linear notes and then often they are even wrong?

[NicDots]

Although these pics aren't Christian related...I suppose they are topic related! I took these pictures when I was in China and Korea visiting my mom's family last year. Some of these temples are some of the most sublime and serene places...you can't help but feel more spiritual when you go there.


Heaven's Gate in China. 1,000 steps up, 1,000 steps down.


Light incense for the family ancestors before starting your way up. You also do this at the top before you go back down.






Temple guardians


The Buddha, obviously.


Either Buddha or a Bodhisattva who's name I cannot recall. Kuan Yin is also seen here.


Buddha's carved into the sides of stone mountains. I wish I could remember where this was, but I can't! These stone buddhas have been there for nearly 2,000 years.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

THIS SUMS IT ALL UP FOR ME!! I TRULY BELIEVE THIS!!

GOD BLESS YOU ALL...I MEAN IT.

Footprints
Also Known As "I Had a Dream"

One night I dreamed a dream.
I was walking along the beach with my Lord. Across the dark sky flashed scenes from my life. For each scene, I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand, one belonging to me and one to my Lord.

When the last scene of my life shot before me I looked back at the footprints in the sand. There was only one set of footprints. I realized that this was at the lowest and saddest times of my life. This always bothered me and I questioned the Lord about my dilemma.

"Lord, You told me when I decided to follow You, You would walk and talk with me all the way. But I'm aware that during the most troublesome times of my life there is only one set of footprints. I just don't understand why, when I need You most, You leave me."

He whispered, "My precious child, I love you and will never leave you, never, ever, during your trials and testings. When you saw only one set of footprints, It was then that I carried you."

Hi Zakk

I find that story very beautiful thankyou for posting.

Mattxxx

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

Although these pics aren't Christian related...I suppose they are topic related! I took these pictures when I was in China and Korea visiting my mom's family last year. Some of these temples are some of the most sublime and serene places...you can't help but feel more spiritual when you go there.


Heaven's Gate in China. 1,000 steps up, 1,000 steps down.


Light incense for the family ancestors before starting your way up. You also do this at the top before you go back down.






Temple guardians


The Buddha, obviously.


Either Buddha or a Bodhisattva who's name I cannot recall. Kuan Yin is also seen here.


Buddha's carved into the sides of stone mountains. I wish I could remember where this was, but I can't! These stone buddhas have been there for nearly 2,000 years.

Hi Nicole!

I am at school and the pictures are all question marks

I carry a laughing Buddha in my Guitar case. I like the way he just has a big old friendly smile on his face
I also have a big lavender soap bar that just fills the whole case with such a gerat smell!!!

Mattxx

[Alex]

xx123456

[Zakk Daniels]

THIS SUMS IT ALL UP FOR ME!! I TRULY BELIEVE THIS!!

GOD BLESS YOU ALL...I MEAN IT.

Footprints
Also Known As "I Had a Dream"

One night I dreamed a dream.
I was walking along the beach with my Lord. Across the dark sky flashed scenes from my life. For each scene, I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand, one belonging to me and one to my Lord.

When the last scene of my life shot before me I looked back at the footprints in the sand. There was only one set of footprints. I realized that this was at the lowest and saddest times of my life. This always bothered me and I questioned the Lord about my dilemma.

"Lord, You told me when I decided to follow You, You would walk and talk with me all the way. But I'm aware that during the most troublesome times of my life there is only one set of footprints. I just don't understand why, when I need You most, You leave me."

He whispered, "My precious child, I love you and will never leave you, never, ever, during your trials and testings. When you saw only one set of footprints, It was then that I carried you."

Hi Zakk

I find that story very beautiful thankyou for posting.

Mattxxx

Yeah, I love that. It always makes me choke up, because it is very true in my beliefs. Been there when both my parents passed away. I know Jesus was carrying me at those times. I was a mess and he was there to pick up the mess, which was me. I am glad you like that little poem Matthew.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

I am sorry to hear of your pain.

What you said (and my reason fro believing in a higher power) made me think of a true story written by a rock climber called 'Touching the Void"

His friend had to cut the rope leaving him to fall. He assumed he was already dead and the weight was going to kill them both.
The chap who fell hundreds of feet against all odds walks miles, climbs with the most horrendous injuries still manages to keep going and after all this to get to safety.

He describes a voice that when he collapses that goads him on the he does not attribute to himself but either his higher self/God.

Either one it is just a human language name and the point is he is carried forward and writes of what he thinks as the human spirit-ie something inpenitrable!

I think Andy played by Tim Robbins in Shawshank Redemption also shows that side of us that is burried deep and so so strong.

Yeah Zakk man very moving.

Mattx

[Zakk Daniels]

I am sorry to hear of your pain.

What you said (and my reason fro believing in a higher power) made me think of a true story written by a rock climber called 'Touching the Void"

His friend had to cut the rope leaving him to fall. He assumed he was already dead and the weight was going to kill them both.
The chap who fell hundreds of feet against all odds walks miles, climbs with the most horrendous injuries still manages to keep going and after all this to get to safety.

He describes a voice that when he collapses that goads him on the he does not attribute to himself but either his higher self/God.

Either one it is just a human language name and the point is he is carried forward and writes of what he thinks as the human spirit-ie something inpenitrable!

I think Andy played by Tim Robbins in Shawshank Redemption also shows that side of us that is burried deep and so so strong.

Yeah Zakk man very moving.

Mattx

It is amazing what the Human Spirit can endure.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

Hi Zakk

Something I wanted to clear up, a message from Frank made me read me own posts and look at how I have been coming across.

I do not think people are mad/bonkers or stupid for believing in Jesus.

I suppose what I was trying to show was that some people commit to things and have not given it any real thought. That annoys me as it is not the kind of thing I think someone should commit to lightly.

That is what I meant. So sorry if that didn't come across.

Aside from that I will keep thinking and saying it because I think it is a good thing, but this thread is doing and has done just that..provided thinking food for people reading who may have not otherwise contemplated these things.

Matt

[Alex]

xx123456

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

I suppose what I was trying to show was that some people commit to things and have not given it any real thought. That annoys me as it is not the kind of thing I think someone should commit to lightly

That is a good point, Matt, and something that I agree strongly with. It is also why I refuse to call myself anything, as I am not focused enough, nor have I put extensive studies into it.

Just something that Frank Skinner says when interviewing the actress from the Emanualle porn films.

In the interview she says she likes to think of herself as an actress. Frank says he thinks to himself "well she hasn't acted for about 12 years"
So he says to a completely ignorant Sylvia "By that token I am a school boy"

Ian is a big Frank Skinner film...don't worry I will link it....

Frank is a Roman Catholic and mentiones his realtionship with God through out his biography.

he does mention the that he is not sure the love is returned back because of the amount of women he enjoys relations with (sausaging )


He says an Irish priest explains it is okay for him to kill his wife as God can forgive him, but he cannot forgive his divorce from her.

Matt

[Zakk Daniels]

Hi Zakk

Something I wanted to clear up, a message from Frank made me read me own posts and look at how I have been coming across.

I do not think people are mad/bonkers or stupid for believing in Jesus.

I suppose what I was trying to show was that some people commit to things and have not given it any real thought. That annoys me as it is not the kind of thing I think someone should commit to lightly.

That is what I meant. So sorry if that didn't come across.

Aside from that I will keep thinking and saying it because I think it is a good thing, but this thread is doing and has done just that..provided thinking food for people reading who may have not otherwise contemplated these things.

Matt

No offense taken whatsoever. No worries dude!!

[highpriestess]

in all fairness barbara, are you suggesting that i/we are mentally ill?

absolutely not. the kicker is, i am not suggesting that the alien abductees are mentally ill either.

agreed. in and of itself, there is nothing remarkable about a belief system. don't you find it curious though that i have lived in a relationship with Him for most of my life now. keep in mind that we are operating under the assumption that i am not mentally ill.

granted. and as i have stated all along, the IMPORTANT thing is how it makes you feel about yourself and about the world, about your life, the kidn of person it makes you, the joy and love that you get from it. And it doesn't truly make a hill of beans how I feel about it at the end of the day. But, entertain THIS: don't you find it curious that I have lived in a relationship with the Goddess (nature, elements) and the God (universe, energy) for most of My life now? Assuming, of course, that I am not mentally ill either

this brings me to my other point. I think we all belive in pertty much the same thing, its just that our approach is different, we use different symbolism (albeit most of the christian symbols were adapted or taken from the pagan and pre-christian symbols - even the cross.) What i mean is - we call it by a different name, we envision it differently in our heads, we choose to worship differently - but to quote Janis Joplin... "it's all the same fucking day, man." - if you catch my drift.

Where most Christians lose me is the idea that because i DON'T call it Christ, I don't worship a certain way - that i'm some sort of "lost soul" - when the bottom line is that MY faith in MY deities brings me the same joy, love, comfort, self esteem, etc that yours brings to you.

<i>"Every religion emphasizes human improvement, love, respect for others, sharing other people's suffering. On these lines every religion had more or less the same viewpoint and the same goal." </i> -The Dalai Lama

i would be disappointed if you were anything other than genuine.

there were some issues earlier in the thread, not involving you. but thank you, and i appreciate your candor as well.

an excellent post. you are raw and honest and i like your style. i have no issues with your position. my frustration and hence my "angry" video and audio remark comes from what i see as less than honest inquiry on the part of some here. as far as us all being right i wish it were so, but it's not my ball. this stuff isn't my idea, honest. i am wretched and twisted, and that's on a good day.

the remark about "anger" again comes from some issues earlier in the thread, not involving you

or the topic really.

by the way, He wanted me to mention that He is especially fond of you!

LOL!

Tell him he's still not getting my money

[highpriestess]

Just wanted to share this, and some of you have probably read it at some point or another, but I noticed how the "golden rule" came up a few times, and of course, I have made it clear, i think, on my stance that we all believe the same thing and that it comes down to that "moral foundation" so i thought i'd post this - it's is the Golden Rule ("Ethic of Reciprocity") as stated throughout some of the worlds religions:

Bahá'í Faith:
"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah

"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

Brahmanism:
"This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "

Buddhism:
"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353

Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18

Christianity:
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.

"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.

"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6. The Gospel of Thomas is one of about 40 gospels that were widely accepted among early Christians, but which never made it into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament).

Confucianism:
"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23

"Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3

"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4

Ancient Egyptian:
"Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE and may be the earliest version ever written. 3

Hinduism:
This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you. Mahabharata 5:1517

Humanism:
"(5) Humanists acknowledge human interdependence, the need for mutual respect and the kinship of all humanity."

"(11) Humanists affirm that individual and social problems can only be resolved by means of human reason, intelligent effort, critical thinking joined with compassion and a spirit of empathy for all living beings. " 4

"Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you, British Humanist Society. 3

Islam:
"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." 5

Jainism:
"Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2.

"In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara

"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33

Judaism:
"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18

"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.

"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 6

Native American Spirituality:
"Respect for all life is the foundation." The Great Law of Peace.

"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk

"Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." Pima proverb.

Roman Pagan Religion:
"The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."

Shinto:
"The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form"

"Be charitable to all beings, love is the representative of God." Ko-ji-ki Hachiman Kasuga

Sikhism:
Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib

"Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259

"No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299

Sufism:
"The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.

Taoism:
"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.

"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49

Unitarian:
"The inherent worth and dignity of every person;"

"Justice, equity and compassion in human relations.... "

"The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;"

"We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part." Unitarian principles. 7,8

Wicca:
"An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). One's will is to be carefully thought out in advance of action. This is called the Wiccan Rede

Yoruba: (Nigeria):
"One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."

Zoroastrianism:
"That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5

"Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29



Some philosophers' statements are:

Epictetus: "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)

Kant: "Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law of nature."

Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)

Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)

Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE)


Examples from moral/ethical systems are:

Humanism:
"...critical intelligence, infused by a sense of human caring, is the best method that humanity has for resolving problems. Reason should be balanced with compassion and empathy and the whole person fulfilled." Humanist Manifesto II; Ethics section.

Scientology: "20:
Try to treat others as you would want them to treat you." This is one of the 21 moral precepts that form the moral code explained in L. Ron Hubbard's booklet "The Way to Happiness."