The Religion, Atheism and Science Discussion

[Logan]

I think that what we are doing when we discuss absolutes in religion ( and other aspects of life) Is to define a reality. reality becomes valid when shared by others. this validation of reality gives hope and strength to those that share this reality.

Now let us replace the word reality with perception. religion provides a perception of a reality that is shared by many. It is a "reality" whether atheists want it to be or not.

Likewise the Atheist perception is also a "reality" whether Religious types want it to be or not.

reality is perception, nothing more and nothing less. If a person hears a small bump in the night they might say that it's the fairy folk coming around and doing mischief. Who am I to say otherwise? This persons perception of that noise gives rise to their reality.

Why does it create so much tension for Atheists to think that there are millions of people on the earth who believe in God? And conversely why does it piss off so many Christians when Atheists say there is no God? It really shouldn't but it does. the reason it does is that both are closed minded. the Antithesis of one's perception has been challenged and no one likes their reality challenged.

In the big picture of things I have finished a six month task of reading and studying the Tao de Ching of Lao Tzu. It has changed my life completely. What I have gathered from it thus far is that in order for one thing to exist it's opposite must exist as well. This is manifest in the Yin Yang as both polars seem to be following and leading each other, front comes before the back yet it also is behind it as well.

In order for God to exist he must not exist as well. He is both present and absent from the universe at the same time. He is both here and not because the reality of some is that he does not exist, and the reality of others is that he does exist.

Lao Tzu tells us that the Doa is flexible like water. It does not fight the cup it is poured into it merely takes it's shape. When we interact with those around us we too must take their shape. this breeds civility and understanding, which in turn births tolerance. We as individuals are not fighting those with opposing views because just as the water does not seek to have the cup take on the no shape of water we too must learn to allow our realities to be challenged in order to grow as individuals.

[NicDots]

Ah, Daoism! Fascinating stuff. Although my grandparents were both Buddhist, they both ventured into Daoist philosophy from time to time. After my mother and her siblings were grown, both my grandparents gave up their lives in the suburbs and moved to the mountainous countryside where their little cabin had no electricity or running water.
The "be like the water" thing is very interesting, and honestly, very purposeful and something everyone should aspire to be. Too bad it's effing hard! I know Bruce Lee said something similar to what Logan posted. Oddly enough, he died of encephalitis. :/

[Logan]

Yes Nicdots Bruce Lee did talk about a martial artist being like water. He taught the fighter to be as water claim no style of fighting so that you can be all styles. He taught the ebb and flow of combat and that to take no shape in combat would allow the fighter to handle any situation. This is the Daoist outlook on life as well. It is not a Bruce Lee original but something that he borrowed from Doaism to express his way of fighting. Bruce was a philosophy major and studied Wing Chun Kung Fu with Yip Man who was heavily into Chinese Philosophy, and Bruce's father being Chinese these ideas would have been very known to him. He even wrote a book called the Tao of Jeet Kune Do which translates to the Way of the intercepting fist. It is a great read and is very philosophical in nature but amazing stuff.

Actually if I remember correctly he died of an allergic reation to aspirin. (I may be remembering wrong.)

Kudos to your grandparents, wish I was in a position to do that. Perhaps when my children have grown that is exactly what I will do!

[NicDots]

I sometimes long to give up all my stuff and sort of my current life and live like a hermit in the woods...sort of like Leo Tolstoy. I don't know why, but that sort of life has always been appealing.

Here is an interesting link about Bruce Lee's death: http://www.allbrucelee.com/article/myst ... ce_lee.htm

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

Ah, Daoism! Fascinating stuff. Although my grandparents were both Buddhist, they both ventured into Daoist philosophy from time to time. After my mother and her siblings were grown, both my grandparents gave up their lives in the suburbs and moved to the mountainous countryside where their little cabin had no electricity or running water.
The "be like the water" thing is very interesting, and honestly, very purposeful and something everyone should aspire to be. :/

Hi Nicole

Your families mixture of cultures and beliefs is fascinating! No wonder you are so open minded towards all these things in the discussion.

I love (and use musically too) Bruce Lee's quote "No style as style. No way as way"

It is like what you and Logan mentioned about his talking of water becoming like what ever it fills. Some people I have spoken with confuse this and also the Buddhism breaking down of ego as a belief in nihilism.

By the way hope you are both doing well

Matt

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

In order for God to exist he must not exist as well. He is both present and absent from the universe at the same time. He is both here and not because the reality of some is that he does not exist, and the reality of others is that he does exist.

Logan that in itself is a lifetime and more than probably us humans can understand/fathom.
This also explains pain and suffering well.

CS Lewis described God sculpting us wih chisels that caused so much pain in the process yet at the end resulted in perfection.

These words are easy to write at the moment, but I must remind myself too (as I forget suffering when I am well and happy) that when someone is in pain often considering all this in a fair way goes aout of the window.

Matt

[NicDots]

Ah, Daoism! Fascinating stuff. Although my grandparents were both Buddhist, they both ventured into Daoist philosophy from time to time. After my mother and her siblings were grown, both my grandparents gave up their lives in the suburbs and moved to the mountainous countryside where their little cabin had no electricity or running water.
The "be like the water" thing is very interesting, and honestly, very purposeful and something everyone should aspire to be. :/

Hi Nicole

Your families mixture of cultures and beliefs is fascinating! No wonder you are so open minded towards all these things in the discussion.

I am happy to be "bi-racial" but it can be very confusing at times. This will sound very corny and dramatic, but because of being bi-racial, I have sometimes felt at odds with who I "really" am. But that's a whole other thread/ordeal!

That is a great CS Lewis quote, Dweebshire!
I have always liked the majority of CS Lewis's work. I have re-read The Screwtape Letters recently. Very interesting indeed, and not just for the run of the mill Christian reader. It's very thought provoking even if you are just into philosophy in general, specifically on the topics of morality and damnation. The Problem of Pain and a Grief Observed are also very good books. I read the pair a few years ago when I went through a bunch of hard personal things along with the death of a close friend. While neither book answered the question of "Why do bad things happen to good people?" (as if that question could ever really be answered anyway!) it certainly gives a perspective as to why bad things happen period and how one can overcome traumatic things in a lifetime.

[Paul Wolfe]

"Why do bad things happen to good people?" (as if that question could ever really be answered anyway!)

That is a question typically asked by people who feel that a current 'bad thing' shouldn't be happening to them. Bad things happen to everyone: good, bad, black white or purple.

Ever noticed that the opposite question is asked far less often? Why do good things happen to bad people?

The '80's bumper sticker said it best, shit happens. It's how you deal with it that determines who you are.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

I have re-read The Screwtape Letters recently. Very interesting indeed, and not just for the run of the mill Christian reader. It's very thought provoking even if you are just into philosophy in general, specifically on the topics of morality and damnation.

I have just started this Nicole cosmic dweebette! Suzie has been recommending it for ages. She is also a huge Narnia fan and owns all seven novels. I would like to read Mere Christianity by C.S Lewis next.

I was quite interested that Lewis was an atheist till the age of 33 (?) when a long discussion with his friend JR Tolkein resulted in him believing.

Two amazing minds. incredible period of history to be in at Oxford University!

Matt

[NicDots]

"Why do bad things happen to good people?" (as if that question could ever really be answered anyway!)

That is a question typically asked by people who feel that a current 'bad thing' shouldn't be happening to them. Bad things happen to everyone: good, bad, black white or purple.

Ever noticed that the opposite question is asked far less often? Why do good things happen to bad people?

The '80's bumper sticker said it best, shit happens. It's how you deal with it that determines who you are.

Very good points as always, Paul.

However, the question of genocide and why that happens is often brought up..."why are their such genocides if God exists?" That's another hard, unanswerable question. However, what I find even more mystifying is an omnipotent God rolled in with a loving God. I don't see how a deity could be both. I had this discussion with my brother a while ago when the topic of pre-destination came up. An all knowing God would know where every soul went before it even existed. However, would a LOVING God produce souls that would just go to hell without a chance?
Woo, that's a can of worms if I've ever seen one.

Dweebshire, I've actually not read Mere Christianity! That's on my list, but I've yet to come around to it. Be sure to let us know what you think of the Screwtape Letters!

[Paul Wolfe]

However, would a LOVING God produce souls that would just go to hell without a chance?

No, a loving God would not. Therefore He gave everyone a chance when He sent Jesus into the world.

[NicDots]

Ah, but if God knows who is going to hell and who is not (predestination), Jesus because sort of superfluous as God knows that that person is going to hell regardless. I struggle with God being omnipotent and loving. I suppose in the end, God will always be more omnipotent to me.

[shanic]

Doesn’t the bible say that the sun revolves around the earth ?

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

Doesn’t the bible say that the sun revolves around the earth ?

So far this discussion is good and friendly from all sides. Shanic baby I hope I am reading that wrong with my sometimes bad understanding skills?

It jumped out at me as mocking and out of context.

I apologise in advance if I have missed something.

Matt

[NicDots]

Doesn’t the bible say that the sun revolves around the earth ?

Click here for an interesting link on astronomy and the Bible. [/url]