The Religion, Atheism and Science Discussion

oth · Post by **oth** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:16 pm

religion is nothing more than ritualistic superstition.
It is a philosophy based on mythology and not reality.Has no basis in fact just wishful thinking.Ergo the constant usage of the word 'faith etc...'.Religion is based on self fulfilling prophecy.The opiate of the downtrodden.

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:22 pm

How did you come upon atheism?

oth · Post by **oth** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:50 am

NicDots wrote:How did you come upon atheism?

Atheism is a condescending word given by religious types to people who refuse to beleive in quackery.

For example is their a name for people who dont beleive the world is flat?
And why not?Probably because anybody can see the curve of the earth.However can you disprove that somebody rose from the grave sometime in the middle east 2000 yrs ago whose name was jesus?

Spirituality is fine but the rituals are something else.Probably the truest religion which is also the most mocked by self righteous religions like christianity, is paganism.What else is more important to human existence than earths resources that provide everyones sustenance?

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:19 pm

I know many atheists that have no problems being called an atheist.
Anyway, how did you come upon the idea that it is the "opiate for the downtrodden"?

oth · Post by **oth** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:59 pm

leap of faith concepts like religion,lottery tickets,get rich quick tv ads/seminars(like buy a house with 200$),are always marketed at poor people and uneducated.The church is no fan of academia because educated populations question the church and the validity of its easily refuted concepts.The chuches main target is poor and uneducated.All religions/cults follow this practice.

The church always installs itself in poor countries were it builds a solid captive base.Look at south america or mexico.Same thing in prisons.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:28 pm

oth wrote: The church always installs itself in poor countries were it builds a solid captive base.Look at south america or mexico.Same thing in prisons.

Another way of looking at it would be to view giving the poor stories of hope and belief, and the power of change through collective prayer, as a good thing. Some people may have lost everything and have their spirit broken. Is it a bad thing to fire them up with stories of hope and the power to change their circumstances?

I don't necessarily believe that; but I have written it to counter act what I think (although a good post by you) is a bit of a sweeping statement.

If you look for corruption you can find it anyway.

Matt

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:53 pm

I don't think the church "installed itself" anywhere. Churches have been organized around the world, and not just in third world countries. I believe the largest Church in the world (as far as members go) is in Seoul, South Korea with 800,000 people attending Sunday services. Korea is not a poor country, mind you. And I'm sure more than a few PhD people attend church on a regular basis. The church isn't what it was when Galileo was around. And the concepts of religion cannot be refuted by anyone, seeing as no one has died and then come back to tell everyone that it was all a joke.
And even if it IS a joke, why is it a necessarily a bad thing? Yes, Mao was right to an extent...religion is the opiate of the masses. But I think that's kind of a good thing, personally. People need to be controlled for the most part, and if they will not listen to their government, listening to a light in the sky is fine too.

oth · Post by **oth** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:01 pm

Matthew wrote:
oth wrote: The church always installs itself in poor countries were it builds a solid captive base.Look at south america or mexico.Same thing in prisons.
Is it a bad thing to fire them up with stories of hope and the power to change their circumstances?

Matt

i dont think they are offering them hope of a better current life just afterlife.They know in this life their claims can be easily refuted.The afterlife is pure superstition and like palm readers,is a hoax.
Its a scam,a CHAM-WOW infomercial,a get rich quick scheme.Sometimes an oppressed membership is more profitable for the chuch.The church often looks the other way in dictatorships...look at the holocaaust or the recent child rapist priests.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:12 am

oth wrote:
Matthew wrote:
oth wrote: The church always installs itself in poor countries were it builds a solid captive base.Look at south america or mexico.Same thing in prisons.
Is it a bad thing to fire them up with stories of hope and the power to change their circumstances?

Matt
i dont think they are offering them hope of a better current life just afterlife.They know in this life their claims can be easily refuted.The afterlife is pure superstition and like palm readers,is a hoax.

I am not interested in the afterlife compared to the everyday things that make sense. Although I have read some very convincing accounts that make my mind open to the possibility of after life my personal belief is that if I pay it too much thought I may begin to subconsciously act 'nice' with an agenda. I would rather assume nothing and act is if this life is it...and make the damn most of it!! Also I feel that I can make serious decisions in an unbias way.

Rather in this strand of the discussion discuss the bits I don't see eye to eye with (I agree with your damning of pseudo science etc) I believe VERY strongly in many of the over looked things of Christianity (of course shared with many other religions too) are forgiveness and compassion.

Of course you don't need to be spiritual to see the benefit of these concepts, but I think some of the writings in religious texts really explain forgiveness and it's purpose eloquently in the case of some of the New Testament especially. Forgiveness helps us move on and keep experiencing.

Not forgiving keeps us stuck.

Scientists (assuming they are non religious) too exercise letting go (forgiveness) when they have to admit they were wrong about a theory etc and take another route and let go of the old thought.

The more I read the more I think believing or not beleving is actually not important. The same things exist for the opposing sides with different titles.

Matt

Zakk Daniels · Post by **Zakk Daniels** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:19 pm

Forgive them Jesus, for they know not what they do/say!!! No truer words were ever FUCKIN written!!!

Turn your back on Jesus, turn your back on life everlasting.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:41 pm

?
I thought I saw a reply from Paul.

I love that quote in context of the story of Jesus' suffering Craig.

Matt

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:37 pm

I enjoyed and related to this

The mantra of the ego is, “Its all about me.” The footprint of the ego is “My way is the only way.” The ego, by nature, will adopt any belief as an identity. Then it is fearful when faced with other beliefs. It feels threatened. There is no love in the ego and the path to God is love - not a belief. The ego must always imagine that it is the center of the universe. Thus, “My way is the only way” comes into being and, by extension, everything with which the ego is associated. An ego-centered Christian says “Jesus is the only way” and an ego-centered Muslim says, “Islam is the only way.” The translation of both statements is, “My way or the highway.” The ego is the opposite of love. The ego is me... me... me... and love is you... you... you... The ego is motivated by, “What’s in it for me?” Love asks, “How may I serve you?” The ego is Satan in us. Love is God in us. The ego is the sense of separation from God and others. Love is a feeling of unity with God and others. The ego is “I” and “mine.” Love does not seek to possess but only to give. Where there is ego there can be no love and where there is selfless love, there can be no ego. Think of any negative emotion - jealousy, hatred, greed, anger - all of them are the fruit of the ego whose roots are “I” and “mine.” Therefore, love is the most potent destroyer of the ego. Jesus says loving our neighbor and loving God are the keys to salvation. Innocence is the fertile soil in which love takes root. That brings us to these questions: “Do I love God with all my heart and mind? Do I love my neighbor as my own self?” - as Jesus commanded? If the answer is no, then we are not going to heaven. If no, then we must begin the quest for this love to which Jesus directs us. Yet we will attend church for years of Sundays and not hear one sermon about love much less any advice as to how to practice this kind of love. Christian books and tapes are more numerous than the stars in the sky but few are concerned with love and how to attain it. This is astonishing because this is the central teaching of Jesus! Love is the very path to salvation! Sadly, we don’t recognize love or the need for it because we ourselves have no love. We have long since forgotten what pure selfless love is or what it feels like.

Matt

McLowery · Post by **McLowery** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:12 pm

Another thing I've been kicking around is the idea that Jesus has the ability to save anyone. All theology aside, not one single person has Jesus saved. The act of "salvation" is an act of free will, therefore transforming the saved into saviour through rational deduction. Being saved from what is an entire branch of philosophy unto itself and for another post.

oth · Post by **oth** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:36 pm

the bible does have salient and eloquent messages like the 10 commandments...basic common sense principles and practices...Im sure these concepts were around long before the bible but the bible put it all in one easy to follow guide book.

My beef is the way the bible is interpreted,manipulated by its adherents to suit their own beleifs.
I dont think it shoould be taken literally.

Here s something else:If god is great and all powerful etc. why do these churches ask for money?Cant god get the money himself if he is so powerful?Cant he just crank up his own printing press and start pumping out cash?

Lastly,if there is a God,why did he allow the holocaust to happen?Or any genocide?

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:57 am

Thanks to Ian phoning me I saw a fascinating documentary about ;St Isha who after all was the catalist of me beginning the thread. Thank you Ian it was very exciting but inconclusive.., as the scrolls claimed to be seen by sveeral people had since been bloody lost! LOL...

Anyway also just before the last in the weekly Sunday show of Christianity was on with Cherrie Blair (The former PM's wife) discussing her Catholic faith and also how the Church of England and the Catholic Church (in her opinion) would have to mend their relations to women other wise face extinction.hmmm. Food for thought.
She travelled to Indiana in the US where (according to the documentary) modern evangelical churches were favouring Cinemas and similar places for meetings
Interestingly the Vicar (?) from one of the Churches said it felt less threatening to new commers and Cherrie agreed saying that the old churhces of England while undoubted;y beautiful were built for their time and out dated now.

Anyway I rehearsed with the local vicar Saturday for the concert this coming Saturday. We are doing a piece from the 16th century called "Poor olde Horse"...

I suggested I made a neighing sound at the end and said that was probably a first for St John's (having a musical item where the accompanist made a Horse noise) he said sometimes when he looks out over the congregation and the faces of some of them it may not be so!!!! LMAO... this vicar has great humour.

Matt