The Religion, Atheism and Science Discussion

[Logan]

Matt, with all due rerspect I fail to see why a death anxiety is a big deal or why it should be considered an issue with someone who choses to believe in God. Christians aren't the only ones who believe in an afterlife. Also we all have our fears aregardless of our beliefs and it is these fears that aid in the formation of our belief structures.

Perhaps we can say that Athiests choose not to believe in God because they suffer from a narcissistic personaliity brought about by serious control issues.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

Matt, with all due rerspect I fail to see why a death anxiety is a big deal or why it should be considered an issue with someone who choses to believe in God.

I agree Logan. Please re-read my post

Cheers

Matt

[Logan]

Matt, with all due rerspect I fail to see why a death anxiety is a big deal or why it should be considered an issue with someone who choses to believe in God.

I agree Logan. Please re-read my post

Cheers

Matt

My apologies Matt. It was a quick read on my part and a misunderstanding, also on my part. My apologies.

American Horse was being a jerk again. Damn him!!

[McLowery]

Perhaps we can say that Athiests choose not to believe in God because they suffer from a narcissistic personaliity brought about by serious control issues.

How does believing in eternal life make this life seem worthwhile and priceless? It doesn't. This idea, that we should live forever if we obey god's laws like good little children, was an absolute work of propaganda by the Romans and it is so the multitude of the uneducated will subconsciencely give less value to their own REAL lives by scapegoating their mislead hopes that their next life will be a paradise. It's actually pathetic how this whole idea makes a mockery of mans intellect and shows the god who designed such childish games with humanity to be a petty schoolyard bully.


You know where god and religion all broke down into nothing more than gibberish for me came? When I was told that the creator of the universe actually took time out of it's day to worry about, not just all human kind but actually me, specifically, to write my name in a book. (a book is a man made invention, for us to feel god has books or should even need such pathetic forms of information stoarage is ignorance of the first order.)

Every single law, idea, truth, declaration and doctrine that proclaims it comes straight from god to us utterly fails by exposing just how man made these gods are. Why do we think that anything we do means anything at all to even the rest of the solar system, let alone the universe. More bigoted arrogance shedding the light on the truth about how we created god in our image.

I'm putting my money on the idea that men and all of his troubles he caused for himself on this planet will be very long gone when the sun expands into a red giant and swallows our mother into it's firey belly, completing the circle of life and incenerating her into but a cinder. Weather we are long gone or by some freak chance we still remain, this will be earth and all of it's life's end. Nothing will stop it because nothing is supposed to, it's the way bodies that have coelesced in space go about the universe being born and dying, over and over again. Humanity has absolutely no influence on this whatsoever, and once again, designing our god so he tells us we are that important is more self-centered egotism that only a human brain can manifest.

NOTHING is more narcissistic than man equating himself with supremacy over all things, in the name of god.

The idea that atheism creates people to lead amoral lives and puts the atheist into a delusional state where he will think his actions are right if he says they are is the most assenine thing I've ever heard.

First of all a man does harm to society and society extracts retribution from the man. He is a man, uncapable of changing reality with his mind and he can't sway the majority of his fellow humans if his actions require them to punish him. Just because Hitler knew what he was doing was scripted to him 'divinly" and he felt he actually was guided by the hand of god. The rest of the world had to show just how full of shit he really was and extract the needed retribution to reestablish the balance. Same with Jesus Christ. He said "I am the way, the truth and the light." and the majority said "bullshit asshole" and nailed him to a cross. He had no real sway over what society mandates for retribution.

[Logan]

Perhaps we can say that Athiests choose not to believe in God because they suffer from a narcissistic personaliity brought about by serious control issues.

How does believing in eternal life make this life seem worthwhile and priceless? It doesn't. This idea, that we should live forever if we obey god's laws like good little children, was an absolute work of propaganda by the Romans and it is so the multitude of the uneducated will subconsciencely give less value to their own REAL lives by scapegoating their mislead hopes that their next life will be a paradise. It's actually pathetic how this whole idea makes a mockery of mans intellect and shows the god who designed such childish games with humanity to be a petty schoolyard bully.


You know where god and religion all broke down into nothing more than gibberish for me came? When I was told that the creator of the universe actually took time out of it's day to worry about, not just all human kind but actually me, specifically, to write my name in a book. (a book is a man made invention, for us to feel god has books or should even need such pathetic forms of information stoarage is ignorance of the first order.)

Every single law, idea, truth, declaration and doctrine that proclaims it comes straight from god to us utterly fails by exposing just how man made these gods are. Why do we think that anything we do means anything at all to even the rest of the solar system, let alone the universe. More bigoted arrogance shedding the light on the truth about how we created god in our image.

I'm putting my money on the idea that men and all of his troubles he caused for himself on this planet will be very long gone when the sun expands into a red giant and swallows our mother into it's firey belly, completing the circle of life and incenerating her into but a cinder. Weather we are long gone or by some freak chance we still remain, this will be earth and all of it's life's end. Nothing will stop it because nothing is supposed to, it's the way bodies that have coelesced in space go about the universe being born and dying, over and over again. Humanity has absolutely no influence on this whatsoever, and once again, designing our god so he tells us we are that important is more self-centered egotism that only a human brain can manifest.

NOTHING is more narcissistic than man equating himself with supremacy over all things, in the name of god.

The idea that atheism creates people to lead amoral lives and puts the atheist into a delusional state where he will think his actions are right if he says they are is the most assenine thing I've ever heard.

First of all a man does harm to society and society extracts retribution from the man. He is a man, uncapable of changing reality with his mind and he can't sway the majority of his fellow humans if his actions require them to punish him. Just because Hitler knew what he was doing was scripted to him 'divinly" and he felt he actually was guided by the hand of god. The rest of the world had to show just how full of shit he really was and extract the needed retribution to reestablish the balance. Same with Jesus Christ. He said "I am the way, the truth and the light." and the majority said "bullshit asshole" and nailed him to a cross. He had no real sway over what society mandates for retribution.

I think you like all Atheists fail to look deeper into the esoteric when it comes to Christianity. Instead of taking the time tio read between the lines you take the easy way out and look at the literal. if Atheists really possesed these massive minds of intellect then how is it that alot of the deeper meanings are lost.

I and other rational Christians are not denying the outright blatant bullshit fabricated by men. If you had read my last post you would have read that I too agreed that much of religion is a farce in the sense of dogma. However there are hidden messages in many of the texts of christianity that speak of other things that get to the heart of the matter.

For example the very premise of this thread deals with the "lost" years of Christ. there is much to suggest that Christ actually spent many years in the company of some of the greatest minds in the far east. from these relationships he gained much insight into the workings of what we would call scientific minds of the day, as well as spiritual.

the Christianity we see today is self righteous bullshit brought on by men who seek nothing more than control over the masses. This can not be denied.

However the root of Christianity is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I fail to see how living by this rule (or attempting to) casts one in a dark shadow that is a stain upon his charecter. We all have things in life that help to enrich it for us. for some it is a fine pint of ale or a glass of damn fine Beaujolais. Some prefer to eat fine food, some enjoy sports and other athletics. All these things enhance and bring enjoyment to their lives.

What does it matter if Christianity brings the sense of fulfillment and enjoyment to people's lives? What the hell do you care? If you do not want to believe then don't. But why try to shit on those that do?

this is that control issue coming out, the narcissism. All Atheists suffer from it. It's sad really. I will say to that a lot of Christians suffer from it as well. So what is the solution? Round up all the Christians and feed them to the Lions...Again!

And to answer your final rant from your post about man not being able to change his reality. You sir are dead wrong. Watch the movie "What the bleep do we know, down the rabbit hole". you will see that your beloved science (and mine too) is proving that we do have very much a control over our realities.

I wish you all the best,
Logan

[McLowery]

However the root of Christianity is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Logan, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. It is unfortunate that 99% of the people who declare they are christians rarely, if ever, try to do this one thing. This philosophy rings with unarguable truth for the entire human race. The beautiful thing about it is that believers and non-believers alike can understand that following this philosophy would have to end many of mankind's woes and lead to a more fulfilling existence for all human beings. I believe if we all incorporated this philosophy into our daily lives, the lodestone around all of our necks would fall away, freeing us from the chains of our own enslavement.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

I have wrestled with many of the doctrines of Christianity in the past (some of those wrestling matches are on here LOL) but I think the most important teachings (that even atheists can benefit from) are Jesus' teachings of forgiveness and also loving one another.

I know to a strict Christian there is far more to it than that and believing in the resurrection is THE things that cements it for them...

Well for me the importance of forgiveness and also loving your neighbour is THE most important message of not only the bible but just living life well.

When you hold ill feeling towards something/someone it makes you ill. Forgiveness and letting go is liberating and also the way to move on and experience newer things!

In the spirit of Craig (Zakk Daniels) Happy new year Fuck*rs!!!!!

Mattxxx

[Logan]

Mclowery, saying that 99%of Christians do not follow that rule is a rather bold statement. I would love to know where your procured such a statistic? It sounds to me like a classic straw man.
It is my opinion that the lay Christian tries very hard to live the law while it is those in the upper echelons that abuse for gain. That itself may be a bold statement but it is one born of observation and is realistically measured. Whereas a stament of 99% seems a fallacy.

Also while The golden rule may now seem rather commonplace it was not when it was introduced. At the time of it's introduction people were living the mosaic law, an eye for an eye and that sort of thing. Buddhists (Matt please correct me if I am wrong) teach betterment of your world through betterment of the self. While these teachings are valid they are not the Christian Do unto others...
that law is interpreted as the antithesis to Buddhism in that you better yourself through abandonment of the self in servitude to others in need. While everyone wants to claim that now a days as common place we have Christ to thank for that. At the time of it's introduction it was revolutionary! Which is why Christ caused such an uproar in his day.

I think that today like Islam Christianity has been hijacked. Republicans in America tout Christianity as a badge of honor. However I feel that few of them really understand it's teachings. Christ said feed the hungry, cloth the naked, care for the elderly and the widow. Now adays Republicans who claim to be good Christians tell these people to "get a fuckin' job" without knowing any of the extenuating circumstances that may prevail. Christ did not say "feed the hungry, with these exceptions..." or "cloth the naked, but..." He just said do it, and "whatever you do to the least of these you do to me."

man left to hjis own devices will destroy himself. We have seen this time and time again throught world cultures and histories. If it were not so we would still be under Greek rule or Roman rule or Sumerian Rule the world throughout. But, cultures rise and pass away because of their fallacy that they in and of themselves are the beginning and the end. Christianity (and to be fair, many other religions) teach belief in a God because human beings need a standard by which to govern themselves be it individually or collectively. There needs to be something that we believe in greater than ourselves to which we can inspire.

As an atheist you may say that you do have that greater being to which you aspire and that is your better self. Too which I say GREAT! but because that is not you know it is a seperate entity and is better than you now so it is a supreme being, or God. Therefore you do believe in a God and are not a true Atheist. As long as you believe in something greater than yourself (even a future self) you are not supreme but answer to in some small way a God. So Atheists do have a religion. A religion of the self. Which in reality if you think about it is not that much different than Christianity.

please discuss, this is getting good!!

I love conversation like this.

Matthew Please jump in!!!

Best wishes McLowery,
Logan

[McLowery]

Logan I think your point of view is being muddled by your own belief in god and this is a very common thing we all do to ourselves and it is also a tricky aspect of our psyche to overcome and hold in check. You believe to the core of your being that god exists and requires our servitude and gratefulness for our lives to be positive and fruitful here now and later in heaven. Now since you KNOW this to be true and real, everyone else who believes in an alternate path for their life are being misled and heading for danger and it is your natural reaction to want to help your brother see "the truth" and you fail, like all of us do at one point or another, to think that your view of the truth is just that, yours.

I want to use the tragedy of 9-11 as an example of my hard lesson learned about this "symptom of humanity" I like to call it. My point of view on the "official" reports the government presented on the happenings of 9-11 raise very valid questions that scrutinzes EVERYTHING they say is fact. To not get into anything other than my own personal take on this I believe the entire event as history is going to record it is one of the biggest lies and conspiracies accomplished by human beings. This made me want to crusade for the truth and I was driven to tell everyone I could about my view on the truth. I came to realize that nobody wants to have the actual proven facts of the event thus they don't wish to know the real truth of the event. The american public wants to pretend that what the government told them is true, without questioning this answer and play charades with their own cilvil liberties because of doing so. This was a very bitter pill I finally had to swallow and I no longer preach my view of 9-11. I realized that if the majority required the actual truth, demanded real investigations of the event that reality would require too much retribution from the perpetrators, it would cause a huge shockwave within the system, make both the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq actions that were executed under complete lies and with malice towards muslims around the world, thus showing the US's almost single handed responsiblity making it liable for the massive destruction wrought both here at home and around the world that people plug their ears and begin to go "la la la la la I can't hear you" when any valid argument starts to erode the "truth" of the "official" reoports on 9-11 and because they know the massive price of exposing the actual truth will cost EVERYONE very much in terms of their own morality and the longer we all go on like this the more accountability fights for the truth, so NOBODY wants to really know what happened that day, they think it is too late for that anyhow, after all the things done in those "official" reports names. I still have problems accepting this idea but I do know I have to accept it.

So I contrast one of my "truths" to what I think may be one of your "truths" and I want to remind both of us that my truth is just that, mine and your thruth is yours and can not become anything more than that, realistically.

[The Flying Dutchman]

I want to use the tragedy of 9-11 as an example of my hard lesson learned about this "symptom of humanity" I like to call it. My point of view on the "official" reports the government presented on the happenings of 9-11 raise very valid questions that scrutinzes EVERYTHING they say is fact. To not get into anything other than my own personal take on this I believe the entire event as history is going to record it is one of the biggest lies and conspiracies accomplished by human beings. This made me want to crusade for the truth and I was driven to tell everyone I could about my view on the truth. I came to realize that nobody wants to have the actual proven facts of the event thus they don't wish to know the real truth of the event. The american public wants to pretend that what the government told them is true, without questioning this answer and play charades with their own cilvil liberties because of doing so. This was a very bitter pill I finally had to swallow and I no longer preach my view of 9-11. I realized that if the majority required the actual truth, demanded real investigations of the event that reality would require too much retribution from the perpetrators, it would cause a huge shockwave within the system, make both the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq actions that were executed under complete lies and with malice towards muslims around the world, thus showing the US's almost single handed responsiblity making it liable for the massive destruction wrought both here at home and around the world that people plug their ears and begin to go "la la la la la I can't hear you" when any valid argument starts to erode the "truth" of the "official" reoports on 9-11 and because they know the massive price of exposing the actual truth will cost EVERYONE very much in terms of their own morality and the longer we all go on like this the more accountability fights for the truth, so NOBODY wants to really know what happened that day, they think it is too late for that anyhow, after all the things done in those "official" reports names. I still have problems accepting this idea but I do know I have to accept it.

So I contrast one of my "truths" to what I think may be one of your "truths" and I want to remind both of us that my truth is just that, mine and your thruth is yours and can not become anything more than that, realistically.

Exactly my thoughts too.
Sometimes I can't believe the 'sheep' character of people, it's like they can tell them anything and they just swallow it without questioning or whatever. (JFK, 911, possibility of more RR footage) Of course life is too short to dig into everything, but sometimes I just can't believe the ignorance of some folkes. I think that 'ignorace' is also a sort of survival mechanism. To some point everybody does. People want to feel comfortable and as long they are fine themselves they couldn't care that much. But unfortunately that 'ignorance' sometimes lead to great disasters.......

[Logan]

Logan I think your point of view is being muddled by your own belief in god and this is a very common thing we all do to ourselves and it is also a tricky aspect of our psyche to overcome and hold in check. You believe to the core of your being that god exists and requires our servitude and gratefulness for our lives to be positive and fruitful here now and later in heaven. Now since you KNOW this to be true and real, everyone else who believes in an alternate path for their life are being misled and heading for danger and it is your natural reaction to want to help your brother see "the truth" and you fail, like all of us do at one point or another, to think that your view of the truth is just that, yours.

I want to use the tragedy of 9-11 as an example of my hard lesson learned about this "symptom of humanity" I like to call it. My point of view on the "official" reports the government presented on the happenings of 9-11 raise very valid questions that scrutinzes EVERYTHING they say is fact. To not get into anything other than my own personal take on this I believe the entire event as history is going to record it is one of the biggest lies and conspiracies accomplished by human beings. This made me want to crusade for the truth and I was driven to tell everyone I could about my view on the truth. I came to realize that nobody wants to have the actual proven facts of the event thus they don't wish to know the real truth of the event. The american public wants to pretend that what the government told them is true, without questioning this answer and play charades with their own cilvil liberties because of doing so. This was a very bitter pill I finally had to swallow and I no longer preach my view of 9-11. I realized that if the majority required the actual truth, demanded real investigations of the event that reality would require too much retribution from the perpetrators, it would cause a huge shockwave within the system, make both the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq actions that were executed under complete lies and with malice towards muslims around the world, thus showing the US's almost single handed responsiblity making it liable for the massive destruction wrought both here at home and around the world that people plug their ears and begin to go "la la la la la I can't hear you" when any valid argument starts to erode the "truth" of the "official" reoports on 9-11 and because they know the massive price of exposing the actual truth will cost EVERYONE very much in terms of their own morality and the longer we all go on like this the more accountability fights for the truth, so NOBODY wants to really know what happened that day, they think it is too late for that anyhow, after all the things done in those "official" reports names. I still have problems accepting this idea but I do know I have to accept it.

So I contrast one of my "truths" to what I think may be one of your "truths" and I want to remind both of us that my truth is just that, mine and your thruth is yours and can not become anything more than that, realistically.

I think McLowery you label me as a standard run of the mill Christian, and nothing could be farther from the truth. My "God" is not the God defined in the Christian Bible. I do not believe an old man in a white toga with a long flowing beard is sitting somewhere in the sky on a golden throne ready to pass judgement on all mankind. I find such a concept to be quite comedic. Nor do I believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ in the sense that it is traditionaly defined.

I think where our disagreements come from is that we define certain things differently. I think just the same as you. In the sense that you say my "belief" in God is clouding my view to the "truth" and I could very well say the same about you. And it is true on both of our parts because if it weren't true neither of us would give a shit, and we would not be having this conversation.

My whole point is that I hate it when Atheists push their beliefs upon everyone else as though it were a universal axiom beyond scrutiny. Like wise nothing pisses me off more than a religious zealot asshole on the soap box.

We should ride down the center lane. Doing so gives us the ability to move left or right if needs be,we have both options open to us. If you ride all the way to the left or right yu have cut your options by 50%, not a very good thing.

I am open to the possibility that there is no God. However i have not found one argument that has been able to persuade me. Not because I'm blinded by my "belief" but because after all the analysis and thinking and working it out, the argument that there is no God does not for me stand to reason.

In conclusion I am not looking down upon you for your stance. I respect you for it. I respect anyone who believes in their standards, however I think that you have cut your options by 50% by not having an open mind that maybe...?

I say there is a God, but I lso say maybe there isn't, but right now all my research has led me to believe there is. Perhaps a better stance for you would be I say there is no God, but maybe there is it's just that my research at this time leads me to believe there is not.

Options my friend it's all about options.

And by the way I lean more towards Hinduism than Christianity.

Best Wishes,
Logan

[McLowery]

Ahh, I always equate someone who says they are a christian with someone who believes Jesus Christ is God. I stand corrected and am very humbled by your willingness to look at things with an open mind. I never looked into Hinduism, by the time I had decided to actually proclaim myself an atheist I hadn't studied into that religion at all. I closed the door in my mind to the belief in god when I realized that my life and existence does not require the belief in god for me to continue as I am right now. Therefore I can't rationalize expending any energy on an uneeded thought process. Also I believe in applying the golden rule to my life and that also does not require god to exist for it's principles to be true.

[Logan]

Yea I'm a little strange. I absolutely love the teachings of Christ but question his divinity. There are many sources which point to the fact that he never said he was divine but that was a later addition by man. I love Hinduism and the belief in reincarnation and Karma, but I do go to a Christian church every Sunday because it is culturaly relavent for me.

Cheers,
Logan

[shanic]

There are many sources which point to the fact that he never said he was divine but that was a later addition by man.

Well is not the first mentioning’s of Christ’s divinity by Paul, and then much more of the bible retro fitted to enhance this view ? As in the Paul that had a hand in writing the New Testament, ah that actual never new Jesus but liked to say that he was speaking for the man. He claimed that on long lonesome road he had an encounter of the divine kind and then presumed to change the teachings of Jesus for the rest of time, deposed James as the spiritual leader of the Christians and started Christendom on a downward spiral.

Mind of course I could be wrong.

[Cpt Matt Sparrow]

I thought everyone would find this of interest. Humanists and atheists in the UK have become so annoyed with the amount of religious messages on buses (mainly advertising the Alpha course) they have their own ones now that reads...

"There's probably no god, so stop worrying and enjoy your life"

A full article can be found here
http://www.justgiving.com/atheistbus

Matt