The Religion, Atheism and Science Discussion

Alex · Post by **Alex** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:55 pm

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Logan · Post by **Logan** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:32 pm

Alex wrote:I think, to fully understand the idea of a demiurge, you have to realise that chaos (the antithesis of cosmos, i.e. from where the "universe" sprung) is not limited to a singular one-dimensional time. Chaos is infinite. Chaos was, chaos is, and chaos will be everything and nothing at the same time. It's a concept that's hard to grasp.

But what we know about the universe is that there is duality in all things. In order for something to exist its opposite must exist as well. So when you say that from chaos all things sprang, that is not nessesarily true.

What we view as choas someone else may full well understand. Look at computers i couldn't tell you how it works to save my life. however someone else gets it.

What we believe to be chaos could be order to a supreme being, therfore he is able to manipulate it and get the desired result.

Or, Chaos existed and order along side of it and this life sprang from that.

We are to quick to judge what order is and chaos. We look to much through our eyes rather than the eyes of something else. Science has become dangerously arrogant. the same way science in the 1930's saw eugenics as a very realistic field. So to are they so convinced that God does not exist to the point of militancy.

I think h however that there are to many religious zelots that are convinced science is the devil's work.

What needs to happen is for people to see that science is the way by which we figure out the supreme being's creation. to me science just keeps on proving how awesome God's work is.

Logan · Post by **Logan** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:35 pm

Paul Wolfe wrote:
Logan wrote: I think ultimately what we are seeing is a rebellion against a creator by wanting to feel ourseelves that we are supreme beings, the creators of our own lives and destinies, yada, yada.
I agree with that statement, Logan.

No one created God, however. God existed before time itself existed. He is on a plane we humans, with our limited intelligence cannot understand.

This article explains what I am trying to say.

I think you hit the nail on the head Paul when you say that we humans in our LIMITED INTELLIGENCE.

Too quickly as humans when we get a little information think that we know everything. A supreme being exists but our understanding of him is so infantile that it is more plesant for the ego to say that he doesn't exist.

Paul Wolfe · Post by **Paul Wolfe** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:25 am

Logan, I also believe that God allows us to know what we need to know when we need to know it. If God doesn't feel we need the information yet, he doesn't give us the information yet.

shanic · Post by **shanic** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:49 am

Paul Wolfe wrote:Logan, I also believe that God allows us to know what we need to know when we need to know it. If God doesn't feel we need the information yet, he doesn't give us the information yet.

Why has god not let us know that we don’t have to kill each other!? Why has he not let us know that he is.

Please don’t say that it's in the bible because that would just be interpretation wouldn’t it and we know how some individuals interpret the bible.

Logan · Post by **Logan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:49 am

Paul Wolfe wrote:Logan, I also believe that God allows us to know what we need to know when we need to know it. If God doesn't feel we need the information yet, he doesn't give us the information yet.

I think this is where we differ in thinking. I believe that we are not God's playthings. I do not believe that he gives us only what he wants to give us, and when he thinks we should have it. Because if God will give us things and do things for us when we're ready why bother praying for tings?

We learn things and discover things when we are ready to understand them ourselves.

God gives us the situation and we figure it out.

Logan · Post by **Logan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:54 am

shanic wrote:
Paul Wolfe wrote:Logan, I also believe that God allows us to know what we need to know when we need to know it. If God doesn't feel we need the information yet, he doesn't give us the information yet.
Why has god not let us know that we don’t have to kill each other!? Why has he not let us know that he is.

Please don’t say that it's in the bible because that would just be interpretation wouldn’t it and we know how some individuals interpret the bible.

I think it's a tragic human need for someone to take care of you. Look we already know that killing is wrong and that stealing is wrong, we don't need anyone to tell us that. the reason why we kill is because sometimes people don't know how else to get what they want. In that situation where sometries to take my life or the life of a loved one I in turn will take their life. They have forced my hand.

people need to wake up and take control of themselves rather than looking for God to do it for you. Once we take control of our selves perhaps therin lies divinity.

I think God has put us here to experience these things so that we may learn from them. If he lives our lives for us why even bother continuing to live?

Logan · Post by **Logan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:58 am

Also I forgot to add on the above post. How do we knoe God has not already let us know he is? Perhaps he is letting you know every day. maybe we are just not listening.

Paul Wolfe · Post by **Paul Wolfe** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:10 am

shanic wrote:
Paul Wolfe wrote:Logan, I also believe that God allows us to know what we need to know when we need to know it. If God doesn't feel we need the information yet, he doesn't give us the information yet.
Why has god not let us know that we don’t have to kill each other!? Why has he not let us know that he is.

Please don’t say that it's in the bible because that would just be interpretation wouldn’t it and we know how some individuals interpret the bible.

No, it would not just be interpretation. The Bible specifically says:

Exodus 20:1-3

And God spoke all these words: "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before me.

Exodus 20:13

You shall not kill.

But, as we all know, just because God says it, that doesn't mean human beings will accept it or follow it.

Logan wrote:I do not believe that he gives us only what he wants to give us, and when he thinks we should have it. Because if God will give us things and do things for us when we're ready why bother praying for tings?

We learn things and discover things when we are ready to understand them ourselves.

God gives us the situation and we figure it out.

Yes, that is the same thing I said in different words. God could have allowed mankind to have the knowledge to put a man on the moon prior to the birth of Christ, had He wanted to. However, He did not grant that information at that time. He deemed it unnecessary to give that knowledge at that time.

Why pray? Because a prayer is a request of God. You want to know something or understand something and you ask God for understanding. Sometimes He says, "No, you are not ready." Then at a later point you ask the same thing and He says, "Yes, because now you are ready."

That is what I believe.

shanic · Post by **shanic** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:27 am

Paul Wolfe wrote: God could have allowed mankind to have the knowledge to put a man on the moon prior to the birth of Christ, had He wanted to. However, He did not grant that information at that time. He deemed it unnecessary to give that knowledge at that time.

But there are many people who believe the bible says that it is ok to kill.

I cannot believe that god gave man the knowledge to go to the moon and that he/she/it decided on a time to hand out such knowledge. Look at where some if not the majority of advances in technology came from for man to get to the moon it’s not pretty.

Paul Wolfe · Post by **Paul Wolfe** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:10 am

shanic wrote: But there are many people who believe the bible says that it is ok to kill.

I cannot believe that god gave man the knowledge to go to the moon and that he/she/it decided on a time to hand out such knowledge. Look at where some if not the majority of advances in technology came from for man to get to the moon it’s not pretty.

Anyone who believes the Bible says it is okay to kill would need to provide specific verses that say this.

The key to your comment, Shanic, is, "I cannot believe". I can believe, and I do.

Mankind searched for the knowledge to be able to fly... great minds put a lot of money into the subject. Finally, on 17 December 1903 Orville and Wilbur Wright managed to accomplish heavier-than-air flight. I firmly believe (but don't ask you to agree) that God decided it was time and gave the Wright brothers access to the keys to the puzzle.

Logan · Post by **Logan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:06 am

shanic wrote:
Paul Wolfe wrote: God could have allowed mankind to have the knowledge to put a man on the moon prior to the birth of Christ, had He wanted to. However, He did not grant that information at that time. He deemed it unnecessary to give that knowledge at that time.
But there are many people who believe the bible says that it is ok to kill.

I cannot believe that god gave man the knowledge to go to the moon and that he/she/it decided on a time to hand out such knowledge. Look at where some if not the majority of advances in technology came from for man to get to the moon it’s not pretty.

Paul, God is omnipotent and all knowing, right? Then answer me this, what does an all knowing all powerful God care if I get knowledge or not?

Paul Wolfe · Post by **Paul Wolfe** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:09 am

Logan wrote:Paul, God is omnipotent and all knowing, right? Then answer me this, what does an all knowing all powerful God care if I get knowledge or not?

God created you out of love, he loves you and wants to see you excel and thus grants you knowledge in His time.

Have you ever seen a small bird looking for food? Did you ever give the bird food or wish you could show the bird where to find food? What importance is a bird in your life, yet you can show concern for it? Do you see where I'm going with this?

Logan · Post by **Logan** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:33 am

Love is a reason, but I think it is too general a reason, and too conveinient. To what PURPOSE are we created? That's a better question I think.

Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:24 pm

Logan wrote:Love is a reason, but I think it is too general a reason, and too conveinient. To what PURPOSE are we created? That's a better question I think.

We can also go beyond that, why should there be a purpose....?