Paul - just to clarify.... if it came across in my making of my point that you have offended me in this thread, that is not the case. I am merely speaking of the ideals that you speak of - some of which i find offenseive... but i do not mean that you've said any one thing that i am simply appauled at on a personal level... man, thats kind of a hard concept to explain, i hope you are getting my meaning in that.
Quite to the contrary, I think that you have been pretty levelheaded in this thread. I'm pleasantly surprised.
My somewhat catty remarks have been exclusively about a point in this thread where the substance of my post was completely abandoned in favor of psychoanalyzing my personality based on my use of second person (which is just my writing style... *shrugs*) and my choice to capitalize words as a means of emphasis on them as opposed to using the boldface ub code that the rest of you use, out of sheer laziness. It was petty and completely off-topic, and to be honset - pissed me off.
I dont want to bore anyon with yet more off-topic crap, i just wanted to clarify that for you --- and i wanted to so it publicly as opposed to PM to make an example of the fact that despite our differences, we CAN function on the same planet with eachother. lol.
Zakk Daniels wrote:
One night I dreamed a dream.
I was walking along the beach with my Lord. Across the dark sky flashed scenes from my life. For each scene, I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand, one belonging to me and one to my Lord.
When the last scene of my life shot before me I looked back at the footprints in the sand. There was only one set of footprints. I realized that this was at the lowest and saddest times of my life. This always bothered me and I questioned the Lord about my dilemma.
"Lord, You told me when I decided to follow You, You would walk and talk with me all the way. But I'm aware that during the most troublesome times of my life there is only one set of footprints. I just don't understand why, when I need You most, You leave me."
He whispered, "My precious child, I love you and will never leave you, never, ever, during your trials and testings. When you saw only one set of footprints, It was then that I carried you."
Craig,
That is the poem that I hold near & dear to my heart. Thanks for posting it up.
In a pervious post you said something that got me thinking. you said that while you belive in the biological/science of life, you also feel that the human energy (what some call the soul, or lifeforce - but in your case we'll stick with energy...) comes from the universe... and at some point returns to it... really, its a basic scientific concept all energy comes from a source and always returns to the source (flipping a lightswitch on and off... even thought the light disappears in the physical room, the energy didnt evaporate, it actually traveled back to its source, you just simply cant see it with the human eye.) - and excuse me for not being a huge science buff here, if some of what i say sounds like a 3rd grader, lol!!
Anyhow... it got me to thinking, that even though you call yourself an athiest, some of your ideals are very paganistic--- you've just plucked all the symbolism and poetry from it and you view it in its rawest, most primal form. The thing that really stuck out to me was the whole energy coming from the universe and returning to it thing. it reminds me of a line from Doreen Valiente's "Charge of the Goddess" --- now i have refraind in this thread from posting any pagan quotes such as the Wiccan Rede or the Charge of the Goddess, because I dont feel that it solidifies my position - if you arent pagan, it doesnt matter how much paganism i quote at you, much like everyone quoting scripture in this thread, really doesnt solidify their position with m, because it's the scripture I have my doubts about to begin with. make sense? But, i wanna post this poem here, and if nothing else try and appreciate the underlying meaning of it and dont think of it as speaking of an actually physical tangible WOMAN, but as a concept thats been painted as and given the face of a woman.... (Also, i would like to point out that there is also a Charge of the God. some pagan only acknowledge a goddess and not a god... i feel that you must have equality in the universe... good and bad... light and dark... male and female... negative and positive.... it takes male and female to make life, does it not?)
anyway...
The Charge Of The Goddess
Written by Doreen Valiente
Listen to the Words of the Great Mother,
Who was of old called among men
Artemis, Astarte, Diana, Melusine,
Aphrodite, Cerridwen, Dana,
Arianrhod, Isis, Bride,
and by many other Names.
Whenever ye have need of anything,
once in the month and better it be when the moon is full,
then shall ye assemble in some secret place,
and adore the spirit of me,
who am Queen of all witches.
There shall ye assemble,
ye who are fain to learn all sorcery,
yet have not won its deepest secrets;
to these will I teach all things that are as yet unknown.
And ye shall be free from slavery;
and as a sign that ye be truly free,
ye shall be naked in thy rites;
and ye shall dance, sing, feast, make music and love,
all in my praise.
For mine is the ecstasy of the spirit,
and mine also is joy on earth;
for my law is love unto all beings.
Keep pure your highest ideals;
strive ever towards them,
let nothing stop you or turn you aside.
For mine is the secret door which
opens upon the Land of Youth,
and mine is the cup of the wine of life,
and the Cauldron of Cerridwen,
which is the Holy Vessel of Immortality.
I am the gracious Goddess,
who gives the gift of joy unto the heart of man.
Upon earth,
I give the knowledge of the spirit eternal;
and beyond death,
I give peace, and freedom,
and reunion with those who have gone before.
Nor do I demand sacrifice;
for behold, I am the Mother of all living,
and my love is poured out upon the Earth.
I am the beauty of the green earth,
and the white moon among the stars,
and the mystery of the waters,
and the desire of the heart of man.
Call unto thy soul, arise, and come unto me.
For I am the soul of Nature,
who gives life to the Universe.
From me all things proceed,
and unto me all things must return;
and before my face, beloved of gods and of men,
let thine innermost divine self be enfolded,
in the rapture of the infinite.
Let my worship be within the heart that rejoicest,
for behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals.
Therefore, let there be beauty and strength,
power and compassion, honor and humility,
mirth and reverence within you.
And thou who thinketh to seek for me,
know thy seeking and yearning shall avail thee not,
unless thou knoweth the mystery;
that if that which thou seekest thou findest not within thee,
thou wilt never find it without thee.
For behold, I have been with thee from the beginning;
and I am that which is attained at the end of desire.
highpriestess wrote:
Doreen Valiente's "Charge of the Goddess" --- now i have refraind in this thread from posting any pagan quotes such as the Wiccan Rede or the Charge of the Goddess, because I dont feel that it solidifies my position -
Please pm any more things so I can search for them.
Please don't think I am a silly Billy but I wasn't aware there was Pagan scripture as such.
Cheers Barbara
Matt
Having a break from online activity for a while to concentrate on music. Please email if you need to get in touch. Matt
Zakk Daniels wrote:
One night I dreamed a dream.
I was walking along the beach with my Lord. Across the dark sky flashed scenes from my life. For each scene, I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand, one belonging to me and one to my Lord.
When the last scene of my life shot before me I looked back at the footprints in the sand. There was only one set of footprints. I realized that this was at the lowest and saddest times of my life. This always bothered me and I questioned the Lord about my dilemma.
"Lord, You told me when I decided to follow You, You would walk and talk with me all the way. But I'm aware that during the most troublesome times of my life there is only one set of footprints. I just don't understand why, when I need You most, You leave me."
He whispered, "My precious child, I love you and will never leave you, never, ever, during your trials and testings. When you saw only one set of footprints, It was then that I carried you."
Craig,
That is the poem that I hold near & dear to my heart. Thanks for posting it up.
You are more than welcome!
Work Sucks!! Thats why I am on here reading posts!!
HighPriestess: Charge of the Goddess is a great piece! Thank you for posting it. When I was six years old I was put into Roman Catholic courses that taught enough of the rules that one could be deemed "confirmed" catholic. Well at the age of about 9 I remember thinking to myself that none of this theology made any logical sense and in fact I rejected it as nonsense. (Secretly of course, the catholics and my mother could be quite illogical about their disciplining such sacralige). I looked into many things in my early teens and the occult interested me a lot. I got a couple Crowley writings and became infatuated with how Crowley explained the actual applications of using one's own power to dictate a situation. Basically you present your will as being above all others in the situation and through the power of belief you will in effect alter their reality. I found this to be what basically all doctrines of control were based upon, the enslavement of the will. My quest for a higher spiritual awareness continued on into my late twenties where I came to a level that gave me the knowledge of what course in life I would have to begin to take and I didn't want to do those things. (one of these things was to give up all material wealth and become nomadic) So I put it aside. This was when I learned astral travel and lucid dreaming. So I decided to look at modern man's course he has set for himself and this, along with several great authors, I came to the conclusion that "god" isn't real. We created god in our image not the way the bible states it. This transition had birthing pains, I didn't fully accept the abscence of "god" until just about 2 years ago after reading a Christopher Hitchens book (god is not GREAT, excellent and intelligent look at the belief in god) So I have these pretty heavy spiritual connections to certain thing because to me, astral projection, is real I've done it many times. The conscience manipulation of anothers will with my own, done that too. These can easily fall under psychology I think so nothing supernatural, IMO. Science and mathematics came easy to me and I was well above my grade level throughout my education and this is what I finally planted my feet on the ground with. Mathematics do not lie or mislead. There is a formula and a proof to that formula. Someday our understanding of higher forms of math will allow us to understand things that are unexplainable in todays world but will be proven and have a specific proof in the future. I'm a book worm and a non-fiction freak so I am constantly feeding my brain with whatever whenever.
Paganism is a more in touch way of practicing our connection to the universe, IMO, and so is Wicca. I think monotheism is what gave mankind an arrogance about his own belief in his own god and polytheism allows a much more "live and let live" feel within in it's influence.
Oh bring me some CHUNKY PUDDING, and bring it RIGHT NOW!!!
I think the only thing about Crowley's ideas and practices that really never set right with me was the over emphasis on sex and magick. I do understand his LOGIC behind it, but I've always thought that it was just a crafty way for his lil freaky self to convince people to have orgies with him. LOL!!! He was a very smart, and powerful man... and i think in that respect he kind of manipulated it all to suit his own edgy desires (because face it, he WAS a deviant. lol) - but, his methods in controling thw will of others was indeed real... and several popel have written about actually witnessing him doing this. And like you, I myself have doen it as well.
You do notice that I call myself pagan (in that the way i believe is polytheistic) and NOT Wiccan. While Wicca is a beautiful religion.... it is just THAT... a religion. I dont want to be labeled as anything... and i dont want to be limited to just one view. Plus i have an utter contempt for organized religion. lol. i just think that our relationships with our deities are personal ones. I always joke that I am the High Priestess of a coven of one. lol.
I will say, that like you - I came to where i am at this moment by way of a spiritual jouney i began as a child. i had some experiences that made me think outside of the box and after alot of soul searching, this is where i am... and i am in no way saying that the journey is over.... this is just where i am today....
it usually always is. lol. i myself usually refrain from having any conversation about politics or religion, because it's very hard for people to see eachothers points when it comes to such passionate discussions and topics that truly do define who were are and that we feel so strongly about with every fiber of our being... its not like discussing "whats your favorite beer"
it usually always ends in someone being burned at the stake. LOL
