The Religion, Atheism and Science Discussion

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:52 pm

NicDots wrote:Does God give us the right to choose? What about the pre-destination argument?

Just thought I'd throw that in the pot!

Oh man. We just lost our worship team leader over this issue and I REALLY struggle with it. Actually I don't struggle. I don't believe in pre-destination simply because I can't fathom a loving father creating children for the the ultimate destination of eternal torment - even if they profess faith in Christ. It flies in the face of what Christ is. I know the bible speaks of pre-destination but I believe it refers to the body of believers - the Church - not the individual.

My church is undergoing a definition phase and some holding strong Calvinistic beliefs are leading this change. Very hard for me because I'll have to address this issue - I can't have my children believing God designs some people to go to hell and there is nothing that can be done about that.

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:54 pm

I always wonder how if God is supposed to be "all knowing" how can he possibly be "all loving"? Seems counter-productive.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:40 pm

NicDots wrote:I always wonder how if God is supposed to be "all knowing" how can he possibly be "all loving"? Seems counter-productive.

Nic I think He is both because He is God. I think of Him as a loving father first and foremost. He knows what's best for you but He has given us freewill - we choose whether to believe and follow or not. He created us to have a dynamic relationship with Him. I believe He allows for intervention in various forms because He is a loving father and He is rooting for us.

I'm sure that flies in the face of a lot of theology out there but this is my true conviction of the nature of God.

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:46 am

My view of God has always been more of the Old Testament God rather than the New Testament God; you know, a bit scary, all powerful, and after all that, loving.

I was afraid you were going to say "cause he's God."

Always a good explanation seeing as God, being God, can do whatever he wants.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:45 pm

NicDots wrote:My view of God has always been more of the Old Testament God rather than the New Testament God; you know, a bit scary, all powerful, and after all that, loving.

I was afraid you were going to say "cause he's God." Always a good explanation seeing as God, being God, can do whatever he wants.

My hope is in the New Testament God who sent Jesus in that we might not be held to all of the Old Testament standards. I think that is where the true character of God is revealed: He is holy and just and demands that a price be paid for sin. This same God sent His only Son to take on that burden for the entire world. Us dads need to think about that some. Would you sacrifice your child to save others - many who have no real appreciation of that sacrifice?

Yeah, me either.

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:47 pm

My old man and I had that talk a long time ago. He said he struggles with that all the time, the whole loving God before everything and everyone. I'm sure if/when I have a family of my own, I'll struggle with the same things. How do I love God more than my kids? Or husband? Tough stuff indeed.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:05 am

Maybe a way to see it is that as human creations of God's we are a part of God, so ultimately there is no difference. The idea of loving God more than the human side of someone is possible as the human side is only temporary in comparison to God and eternity which we become a part of too as a part of our higher selves.

I am thinking in he Bible where it says "ye are all God's"
Often I think that is quoted out of context and misunderstood to mean people going around thinking they ARE god when to me it indicates we are all a tiny part of the whole.

I love my wife as much as humanly possible but I think to understand God and love him it goes beyond human possibility. But it is like a pardox as it is possible but from the furthest reaches of us that goes being human...

I don't mean it is impossible for us to do, Matt

Post by **Trigger** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:13 pm

That was very deep Matt, for me I would love to participate in this thread more often but I find myself working and distracted and when I get back the subject has moved on!!! Then my chance has gone, so I will just launch in.

This subject has had the power to unite people to talk as well as divide them for somewhat petty reasons. I don't think I can offend anybody else than I already have within the community so I figure I should just jump in!!!

I think that we find the God figure that best serves ourselves and sometimes that god figure isn't a god it is our inner self. That is where I found my personnel salvation, they are not from a book but political beliefs and opinions I discovered by traveling to different global locations and reading history form varying political sides.

Nic,

Your dad is German, here in Europe Church going and varying faith numbers dwindled year on year after the end of WWII. I know servicemen who lost faith during the war due to what they saw and how they were forced to behave for a greater future and an unoccupied Europe.
As a German, it was even worse because young Germans were forced to face up to the sins of their own fathers and Grandfathers.
In Europe especially but mainly in Britain and Germany the bombing was so intense that the mayhem often visited you and wasn't just a far off conflict my Grandmother told me how people said if God existed this bloody war would never have happened. In Britain the working classes abandoned the church and its teaching leaving only the middle classes still attending.

Perhaps Nic' your dad is just part of that post 1945 European questioning?

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:47 pm

Hi Ian

After years of reading and gathering information from the internet, the library, books I own, Watching countless Richard Dawkins clips on youtube, learning new things from this thread too, my friendship with members here too (thanks Craig Nicole and Paul

) I have decided to follow the way of Jesus.

Although I laugh as I write I am not kidding either.

Do I think there is only one way?-No, do I think as humans we will ever know the answers to the big questions?-I don't think it is possible to, I do though think the love Jesus showed is the biggest and most important part of believing in him, and his over powering presence in the gospels jumped out at me.

I had my breakthough re-reading the Bible, instead of reading as a work of complete fact (the countles times I attempted that I found historical inaccuracies or slight variations gospel to gospel), I read with my mind quietened, and just took in what i read with my mind and not my brain.

What revealed itself was the greatest story and a different kind pf truth that I cannot describe, other than to say it transcended the other 'truth,' I was looking for. The truth I am talking about was an amazing compassion.

That is what I have seen!! The Bible says something that I think describes searching for things "where is your treasure shall be your heart!"

Matt

NicDots · Post by **NicDots** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:13 pm

Trigger wrote: As a German, it was even worse because young Germans were forced to face up to the sins of their own fathers and Grandfathers.
In Europe especially but mainly in Britain and Germany the bombing was so intense that the mayhem often visited you and wasn't just a far off conflict my Grandmother told me how people said if God existed this bloody war would never have happened. In Britain the working classes abandoned the church and its teaching leaving only the middle classes still attending.

Perhaps Nic' your dad is just part of that post 1945 European questioning?

I have heard of that happening in Europe, and that makes sense. I think my father's mind is boggled because of his upbringing. He left Germany when he was 10, and then was raised in the US. Then he went to University in England after he graduated high school, so he was educated in the UK. I think my dad has sort of taken bits and pieces of what other people have told them about religion and put it all together for himself. I suppose that is not unusual. I also think my dad has probably gotten more religious with age, which again isn't all that unusual.
Oddly enough, my dad's father is not religious at all, but was a church goer when he was a young man (during the war, before the war) but it kind of dwindled off as he got older. His wife would go to church now and then, but was largely an atheist since young adulthood. Germans have to deal with the whole "sins of the father" thing and how that relates to the idea of God. However, I hear that France is the most secular place on Earth (more so than Germany or the UK) and that a new religious revival is actually happening in Russia. Has anyone heard of these things? My remaining family in Germany both mentioned that to my dad when he visited them last. And for the record, they are Roman Catholics that go to church 2 times a year.

Dweebshire wrote:Maybe a way to see it is that as human creations of God's we are a part of God, so ultimately there is no difference. The idea of loving God more than the human side of someone is possible as the human side is only temporary in comparison to God and eternity which we become a part of too as a part of our higher selves.

I have never thought of it that way! Excellent post.

Post by **Trigger** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:14 pm

Hello Nic' I hope you are keeping well

This is great, I get to bring other things into the faith thread

The Russians are getting closer to God and I think it’s because under Soviet rule they were not allowed public shows of faith Communism became the provider of all that they decided was needed. In a free Russia they can worship and have grasped that in a way that demonstrates that they won’t lose that ability again. They are also becoming nostalgic for the Tsar

It is as if they have forgotten why they had a Revolution to free themselves from an oppressive Monarchy. The way Russians have re-embraced dreams of the monarchy and observation of the orthodox faith reminds me how East Germany had an emergence as Neo-Nazi's after the collapse of the Berlin wall. I imagine after years of being held down and generations lost to anonymity they must struggle to find an identity or to discover a direction after years of never having to think for themselves.
I am not sure if France is as Liberal and secular as Britain, I have met many French who are all Catholic, and though Liberal, are proud nationalists and critical of overt shows of faith if not Christian. It has only been a few decades since the French were fighting Algerians at home and in Algeria to secure Algerian independence. I have read reports from France about the bodies of murdered Algerians floating through Paris after state sponsored hit squads were sent out to attack the Algerian Nationalists living in France.
As an anti imperialist I can say with pride as our Empire thankfully fell we didn't go to these lengths here in Britain.
Recently the French President announced that the French state would prevent Muslim women from being covered and five years ago they passed laws to prevent children in French schools displaying anything that displays faith i.e., veils for Muslim girls and prevented parts of the head being covered by Jewish and Muslim boys. Here in Britain laws like that would never pass through our Parliament, and I can't foresee a time when they might! I think that the most liberal places to worship in Europe are Britain and Holland although Germany must come a close third, although Germany does have a few inner problems when it comes to immigration. Thankfully though Germany has learned to its cost that state sponsored/organized interference in faith matters is something that they have a history of messing up when un challenged form within.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:37 pm

LMAO!!!!! @ Dweebshire wrote

Post by **Trigger** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:41 pm

I have customers who are both elderly and Jewish one is a well known historian, we sit together have lunch and talk about all aspects of history and I always bring the subject around to Palestine and the Life of Jesus. Because I have spoken so often about how Jesus would feel knowning his work led to the birth of Christianity, they lent me a book (in three parts) that was written by a German historian who studied Judaism in Palestine pre-Jesus and tracing through Faith and politics to the birth of Christianity.
The author studied how Islam Judaism and Christianity develop and link, he also traces the Biblical story and debates how much myth was added to demonise Islam and judaism, also the whole life of Saint Peter and Paul is exposed how parts of their story is myth and even questions the existence of certain saints who are purported to be important in creating/spreading Christianity.

I am looking forward to really getting to grasps with it because I think it will be an interesting addition to any future chatting we do in this topic. Interestingly the wife of the historian can trace her family line from Palestine all the way back to Ancient Babylon, when I am with them the time really fly's.

Cpt Matt Sparrow · Post by **Cpt Matt Sparrow** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:41 am

Hi Ian

In the four gospels, it is possible some things were added around the time, carbon dating dates the earliest gospel c.40 years after the death of Jesus. But in this period Islam hadn't even been born, presumably you mean along the centuries there has been things done to create an alleged propaganda against Islam?

That sounds a fascinating book. All books argued convincingly are worth a read.

I have become a Christian a few weeks ago. My Myspace blog outlines my thinking and reasoning, have a read. Don't worry Ian I am not going to start bugging you and saying with an evil smile that Jesus loves you, but jokes aside I mean that sincerely.
My blog address' my confrontation with the possible myths injected into Christianity etc.

I echo C.S Lewis saying he was the most reluctant convert. I am a close second

Matt

Post by **Trigger** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:01 pm

Congratulations in reaching your decision to accept a faith direction. Like you I have really reached into my free will and free thought and I find myself stranded on my political island. I do however see it shares more in common with religion than many others would notice, i.e. tolerance equality and compassion.
I was referring to the way that people in the church have marginalized and tainted other monotheistic religions , both Judaism and Islam have both been the target of the church for varying reasons. What might have changed things now is that we as a populace are better educated and we no longer rely on a church to inform us of the truth behind issues.