What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??

[CanuckRhoadsFan]

Randy's style is oft imitated, but he had something special in his execution of the material.

Now this is what I don't see (hear). I can't name a single player that sounds like he is imitating Randy unless he is playing on a tribute record... but then I may not be listening to the right bands.

As for the precision in his playing, that makes sense. Maybe that's his contribution to 80's metal? A lot of guys came along in a very short period who were light years ahead of the 70's players in both speed and precision - Randy and Eddie were the first (best?) and as such set the bar.

Metal in general was making it's comeback by 1980 (Priest, Scorpions, Maiden, NWOBHM, even Sabbath), but I think Blizzard was the most visible recording...

I'm hoping the conversation - debate - continues...

I guess I view his style as being more imitated with a lot of the flashier metal of the 80's, a lot of the glam type bands ATTEMPTED to imitate his style, but most of them fell flat.

The real difference for me is that those guys captured the flash, but had none of the substance; take for example an 80's metal song from any number of bands, and compare it to something like "Mr. Crowley", which is expertly crafted, musically, with a number of layers. These are similar in some ways, but apples and oranges in others. Does this make sense? I know what I'm trying to say here, but im hoping it makes sense to other people, lol!

[mojopin70]

I thought his legato was his strength. The reason that he is remembered is because those albums produced something that no one had heard before, especially Diary of a Madman.

To me Rhoads's musical knowledge and playing were already above Blackmore's when he died.

RItchie Blackmore had elements of classical music in his playing, so did Brian May.But Rhoads was the first guitarist to combine metal and classical to that intensity,or "heaviness" in his sound. As Zakk Wylde said his leads were like compositions within a composition i would have to agree with that. Ozzys eerie voice obviously had a lot to do with the overall sound , but Ozzy with Sabbath had not come to close to the sound in the Blizzard of Ozz band, and i dont even think Sabbath were capable of it.

DIary of a Madman the song, is such a powerful classical sounding piece i had never heard anything like that before. All you have to do is look at RHoads's wiki page and see how much is written about him to know his historical significance. As Paul Gilbert said he had never quite heard a sound like Randy's before. And to be remembered at a time when Van Halen were monsters today is some achievement, partly because of his death but partly because that first album sold over 6 million , and because Rhoads was onto something when he died.

[Paul Wolfe]

I was thinking about this topic while at work last night, and one thing that occurred to me is that Randy was the first rock guitarist I ever heard talk about studying music and practicing like it was cool. In interviews he mentioned taking lessons to improve himself, and then you'd hear what he was capable of and think, "You need to improve?"

It was shortly after his death that the magazines started pushing the notion that studying theory could be the key to greatness.

Maybe his historical significance is bringing the notion of modes into the rock guitar pantheon... it was nearly impossible to pick up a guitar publication in the 80's without a discussion of modes.

I remember when Zakk first came on the scene, I read an interview where he said he specifically stuck to pentatonics because he wanted to differentiate himself from all the modal stuff people were obsessing over at the time.

[dannyahansen]

I was thinking about this topic while at work last night, and one thing that occurred to me is that Randy was the first rock guitarist I ever heard talk about studying music and practicing like it was cool. In interviews he mentioned taking lessons to improve himself, and then you'd hear what he was capable of and think, "You need to improve?"

It was shortly after his death that the magazines started pushing the notion that studying theory could be the key to greatness.

Maybe his historical significance is bringing the notion of modes into the rock guitar pantheon... it was nearly impossible to pick up a guitar publication in the 80's without a discussion of modes.

I remember when Zakk first came on the scene, I read an interview where he said he specifically stuck to pentatonics because he wanted to differentiate himself from all the modal stuff people were obsessing over at the time.

I think you may be on to something here. I think that songs and lead work got more sophisticated because of Randy and what he did. Ed was always off the cuff and Randy was always more careful and deliberate. Really before Randy there was not much of that. It all seemed to be more off the cuff.

[orion_damage]

I was thinking about this topic while at work last night, and one thing that occurred to me is that Randy was the first rock guitarist I ever heard talk about studying music and practicing like it was cool. In interviews he mentioned taking lessons to improve himself, and then you'd hear what he was capable of and think, "You need to improve?"

It was shortly after his death that the magazines started pushing the notion that studying theory could be the key to greatness.

Maybe his historical significance is bringing the notion of modes into the rock guitar pantheon... it was nearly impossible to pick up a guitar publication in the 80's without a discussion of modes.

I remember when Zakk first came on the scene, I read an interview where he said he specifically stuck to pentatonics because he wanted to differentiate himself from all the modal stuff people were obsessing over at the time.

I think you may be on to something here. I think that songs and lead work got more sophisticated because of Randy and what he did. Ed was always off the cuff and Randy was always more careful and deliberate. Really before Randy there was not much of that. It all seemed to be more off the cuff.

Great point Paul and I'll second that's a great tidbit.

I was actually reading an interview of Randy's this morning and came across this question:

***
Question: Are you an accomplished player?

Answer: No, I wouldn't say that at all. Again, I never had the patience to go through it. I wish I could be good.
***

I wonder what his idea of good was?

[devorerd]

my interpretation , good means, complete, Randy's appetite for musical knowledge was .....well, unsatisfiable , which separated him from not only other players in that era, but on a different level. By that I mean, you can be a mechanic, learn all the theory, modes, scales you want but if you don't have the natural ability, well you end up with sounding like, IMO, Steve Vai.....no disrespect intended.

[Tito]

WRONG!!

[sytharnia]

I always took randy's comment as he wasn't satisfied because he was still searching for his musical identity....it QR they were trying to be a british style glam band but with ozzy he got to spread his wings (largely thanks to working with a guy like bob i think .... please this isn't a comment that is meant to turn this into another bob thread) so he started to expand his character, which also usually means you get a direction/style that you can follow.

I know from being in bands that unless you know (as a band) what it is you are trying to do you won't get any where. You really need that focus of what you want your band to sound like....not an easy thing

[devorerd]

WRONG!!

Hmmm...it's MY interpretation, so if it's mine, not yours or anybody else's, it's not wrong. Guess you had a bad day, so I'll leave it at that.

[CanuckRhoadsFan]

I always took randy's comment as he wasn't satisfied because he was still searching for his musical identity....it QR they were trying to be a british style glam band but with ozzy he got to spread his wings (largely thanks to working with a guy like bob i think .... please this isn't a comment that is meant to turn this into another bob thread) so he started to expand his character, which also usually means you get a direction/style that you can follow.

I know from being in bands that unless you know (as a band) what it is you are trying to do you won't get any where. You really need that focus of what you want your band to sound like....not an easy thing

Lots to agree with here. Randy needed the mentorship of an older, established pro musician to some point. I would agree that Bob and Lee provided that to a degree, as did Ozzy, in his own way.

Randy was just starting to shape his musical identity in some ways at the time of his passing, but what sets him apart from many other people, in my opinion, is that he had a wealth of musical knowledge to draw from, due to his familiarity with the actual technical side of music. Which makes it all the more tragic that he passed - it's my feeling he would have continued to build on, and "scaffold" his music up to new and even more accomplished levels. What WAS was great, what could have been is heartbreaking, both from the standpoint that such a decent, good guy perished in such a needless act, and that the music world, and fans, lost a burgeoning, exciting guitar player.

[CanuckRhoadsFan]

my interpretation , good means, complete, Randy's appetite for musical knowledge was .....well, unsatisfiable , which separated him from not only other players in that era, but on a different level. By that I mean, you can be a mechanic, learn all the theory, modes, scales you want but if you don't have the natural ability, well you end up with sounding like, IMO, Steve Vai.....no disrespect intended.

For what it's worth, I agree about Vai; he's a technically accomplished player, but there's just something missing in terms of the emotion in his playing. Don't get me wrong, he's great, but he's missing that intangible quality and charisma that really brings together his playing as the whole package. It's a similar situation with Joe Satriani, in my opinion.

[No1UNo]

I think Randy's music knowledge and vocabulary - because he not only played, practiced, and taught so much, was immense and beyond what the typical guitarist had at his thinking fingertips...the ability to so perfectly translate what he heard in his head to our ears was his strength, because he was so learned. You are onto something when you mention the classical composers of centuries ago who wove together intricate parts of different instruments and sounds, and some of who only played violin or piano (and were just about deaf - Beethoven) - BUT, they knew music theory upwards, downwards, backwards, and forwards AND they could hear those parts and pieces in their heads and translate them to our ears. Randy Rhoads didn't write songs, he COMPOSED them - from the chord progressions, time signature changes, fills, and solos; he had the music vocabulary to KNOW what would work and what would sound best. I don't think most guitarists did that...to sit back and THINK, "Where to I want to take this song, do I want to change the backing solo chord progression, what kind of phrasings do I want to use in the solo so the music "speaks" and "emotes" to the listener?" That, to me, is one of the main reasons his music has so much feeling and expression - his love of the playing, practicing, and studying the guitar come through in a way only possible from someone with such a high level of learning with the instrument. The song "Diary" is the BEST example of this...it is such a delicate, mournful, furious, and frenzied piece all in one, it completely communicates the mood of what the story-teller / lyricist is going through...the anguish, the torment, the depression, the sadness of all hope lost. To sum it up, I think his main influence is what he was...he was a teacher (like his Mom) and was the thinking man's guitarist - regardless of the style he played. He was going to pursue further knowledge of his instrument and become better at it no matter what style he played. It would have been such incredible amazement to have had the opportunity to to see where he would've taken us.

[nuclear1]

I think Randy's music knowledge and vocabulary - because he not only played, practiced, and taught so much, was immense and beyond what the typical guitarist had at his thinking fingertips...the ability to so perfectly translate what he heard in his head to our ears was his strength, because he was so learned. You are onto something when you mention the classical composers of centuries ago who wove together intricate parts of different instruments and sounds, and some of who only played violin or piano (and were just about deaf - Beethoven) - BUT, they knew music theory upwards, downwards, backwards, and forwards AND they could hear those parts and pieces in their heads and translate them to our ears. Randy Rhoads didn't write songs, he COMPOSED them - from the chord progressions, time signature changes, fills, and solos; he had the music vocabulary to KNOW what would work and what would sound best. I don't think most guitarists did that...to sit back and THINK, "Where to I want to take this song, do I want to change the backing solo chord progression, what kind of phrasings do I want to use in the solo so the music "speaks" and "emotes" to the listener?" That, to me, is one of the main reasons his music has so much feeling and expression - his love of the playing, practicing, and studying the guitar come through in a way only possible from someone with such a high level of learning with the instrument. The song "Diary" is the BEST example of this...it is such a delicate, mournful, furious, and frenzied piece all in one, it completely communicates the mood of what the story-teller / lyricist is going through...the anguish, the torment, the depression, the sadness of all hope lost. To sum it up, I think his main influence is what he was...he was a teacher (like his Mom) and was the thinking man's guitarist - regardless of the style he played. He was going to pursue further knowledge of his instrument and become better at it no matter what style he played. It would have been such incredible amazement to have had the opportunity to to see where he would've taken us.

I have to agree...
The odd piece to the above statement is what Jodi wrote in the Book from a couple years ago...
Not verbatim but that he never really listened to the Hard Rock stuff as he got older.....According to her....they would go out and see Jazz or Classical guitar players.

[GUITARIDOL5682]

Many RR fans get into a fixed way of thinking that Randy would always stick to his roots in musical taste. He was very much into varied types of music and being a teacher he would of had to of been switched on to a certain degree. Being able to play other music rather then just HM, Rock, Blues. His love for classical playing was a work in progress throughout his time with Ozzy. He carried on getting lessons while on all the tours over 1980-1982. So i think he would of been well focused on that type of playing. I know many guys who i grew up with, they played guitar and loved HM Rock music playing the same groove in bands etc in the 80's. But didn't like Funk, Reggae, Blues Disco, etc. Some of them just don't like Rock music now and are into playing classical acoustic style of playing. One guy who i knew as a singer went full circle and re joined his band from the 80's and he is now enjoying Thrash, Industrial metal. After retiring he mellowed out and listened to Jazz and early blues i think he realised he had grown blinkers in his old age. I think Randy could of went the same way and predicting what he would of done in later life is a hard one. He may of getting occupied with his family and kids if he ever had any and he could of packed it all in. I know many 'family types' of guy's who just get hen pecked into doing what their partner does and the fun times come to a stop. When your dedicated to one subject it sometimes gets boring and your full time hobby becomes stale.

[Tito]

wow!!!now that was extremely well put!!!BRAVO!!