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 Post subject: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:41 pm 
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What is Randy's historical significance to the metal genre?

Sure there are a couple great albums, but what else? Not many players post-Randy play at all like him. Some cite him as an influence, but that could be anything from, "I loved those records so I wanted to play guitar," to "I started listening to baroque classics after reading about Randy Rhoads..."

Ed was widely imitated in the '80's and most of the bands on the Strip were popping up there while Randy was recording Diary, so that genre would have happened anyway...

So where does Randy fit beyond a couple great recordings?


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:28 pm 
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I think part of what you see is the passion the people used after him. Ed contributed to that too. Of course I am not sure all what he brought in total. I think he brought inspiration and some innovations. I think a lot gets covered up or credited to by Ed. An interesting conversation for sure.

Same thing could be said of Ace or Jimmy Page or Ritchie Blackmore. Great guitar players and lots of people say they are influenced by them. But what specifically? What did those guys actually bring?

I think they all have shaped rock. Just not to the magnitude that Ed and Jimi did. And that is probably the problem is looking at what Randy did though the lens of Ed.


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:20 pm 
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Thanks Danny, you've hit the nail on the head with Ace and Page... Ace's main influence, in my opinion, was making kids want to play in the first place.

With Page, I remember reading a Jake E Lee interview where he said he heard the solo to Heartbreaker solo and dreaming of being able to play that fast one day :D ... I think, in many ways, Jimmy's influence was just like Ace's.

Then again, the 80's ushered in the era of studying players in an effort to play like them. Guitar for the Practicing Musician changed a lot, as did Hot Licks videos.

The thing with Ed is that he played upbeat party music - which the hair metal clan followed. Randy did not play like that... what about European bands or black/death metal stuff? I don't listen to that style, was that influenced by Randy's classical side?


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:15 am 
Madman

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Randy's significance cannot be easily labeled, in my opinion.

Certainly, he is significant for the excellent music he made with Ozzy, and to a lesser degree, Quiet Riot, but there is an intangible quality about Randy that makes him unique. I can't quite put my finger on it, but here goes anyway.

I think Randy was the first rock player to really, truly PIONEER metal guitar. I don't think it can be said enough that Randy's work was groundbreaking. His skill, creativity, and technical prowess put him on a different level than everyone else. He was an "outlier" (read Malcolm Gladwell to truly grasp the full meaning of this), one of the few extraordinary people that practice, practice, practice, and reach the pinnacle of success in their field. I feel that Randy was one of these types of people. He literally saw the music in a different way, and created his music based on his musical vision. Sure, he took pieces of things he had done previously, but given the opportunity, he rose to the occasion and created something memorable.....and to a large degree, brilliant with other like-minded individuals. Any player that can create music that has so indelibly left its mark on not only pop culture but also how others within his genre play is worthy of being spoke about with reverence forever.

There may be more technically proficient players than Randy these days, but that's because he blazed the path for them, and became the beacon, the guiding light of how to play metal guitar.....and for all intents and purposes, he was the first.

The relatively small window of brilliance that we saw from Randy is also something people lament. Randy rose so quickly, so brilliantly, that his loss was amplified for years, and still continues to be. I think it is the knowledge that he was taken so fast, so cruelly, in such a tragic fashion that still affects people to the core. We know he is gone, but many people still cannot get over the loss of not only such a decent person, but an amazing, trailblazing player. The tragedy that we won't get anymore music from him is very, very sad.

Randy, while we didn't get as much music from him as we would have liked, is still an important player in the Rock and metal genres. He changed how people thought about metal guitar, brought a touch of class to the proceedings, and showed us what COULD be. I, for one, am forever thankful that he shared his gifts with us, albeit for a short time. We at least had a chance to see what he was capable of...which is infinitely better than never having been able to hear his work at all.


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:01 pm 
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I agree......very well said


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:20 pm 
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CanuckRhoadsFan wrote:
I think Randy was the first rock player to really, truly PIONEER metal guitar. I don't think it can be said enough that Randy's work was groundbreaking.


See, that's why I asked the question... I've heard this since 1983, but no one can say what he actually did that was "groundbreaking" - it wasn't the melding of classical and blues, it wasn't the metal genre, it wasn't even melding pop and metal - so what was groundbreaking about Randy?

I don't think anything was.

I think he was a talented guitar player who was involved writing and performing some very good songs. Maybe this is why he isn't the "household name" we loyal fans claim he should be.

This is in no way meant to be negative towards Randy Rhoads, I am truly trying to figure out his importance in the pantheon of great players.


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:11 am 
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Paul Wolfe wrote:
CanuckRhoadsFan wrote:
I think Randy was the first rock player to really, truly PIONEER metal guitar. I don't think it can be said enough that Randy's work was groundbreaking.


See, that's why I asked the question... I've heard this since 1983, but no one can say what he actually did that was "groundbreaking" - it wasn't the melding of classical and blues, it wasn't the metal genre, it wasn't even melding pop and metal - so what was groundbreaking about Randy?

I don't think anything was.

I think he was a talented guitar player who was involved writing and performing some very good songs. Maybe this is why he isn't the "household name" we loyal fans claim he should be.

This is in no way meant to be negative towards Randy Rhoads, I am truly trying to figure out his importance in the pantheon of great players.


Fair enough.

I personally think it was the melding of classical and metal. Blues had nothing to do with it, in my opinion. I honestly don't hear much "blues" in Randy's playing.

I also thought it was the level of complexity that Randy's material encompassed as well, that set him apart. He played fairly complex material that only a veteran, even accomplished player, could tackle. He brought a level of technical skill to the world of metal guitar that was not there before. Of course, there were good players before Randy, but I don't think that there was anyone, (save Ed Van Halen) at the time that was in his ballpark. It was as a direct result of the two Ozzy albums that put the metal world on notice that it needed to up its guitar game. Guitar, in my opinion, went from "chunky" to "more precise" with the rise of Randy's playing in the metal world. I would even argue that thrash and speed metal, with some artists showing extreme precision, would not have come about, or at least progressed to the point it did in the amount of time it did without Randy's work. His work became, and is, a touchstone of metal guitar. This is why I think he is pioneering.

Like I say, I've attempted to qualify what Randy's contributions work here, and even though I may not have been successful, I still feel he's an important player. I think that whole "intangible X factor" also comes into play here as well. While some may argue (and I disagree) that he brought nothing new to the table, I feel that it also had something to do with the WAY he brought it across. Randy's style is oft imitated, but he had something special in his execution of the material.

I also feel that this will be debated for a long time, as there is no easy answer.


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:00 pm 
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CanuckRhoadsFan wrote:
Randy's style is oft imitated, but he had something special in his execution of the material.


Now this is what I don't see (hear). I can't name a single player that sounds like he is imitating Randy unless he is playing on a tribute record... but then I may not be listening to the right bands.

As for the precision in his playing, that makes sense. Maybe that's his contribution to 80's metal? A lot of guys came along in a very short period who were light years ahead of the 70's players in both speed and precision - Randy and Eddie were the first (best?) and as such set the bar.

Metal in general was making it's comeback by 1980 (Priest, Scorpions, Maiden, NWOBHM, even Sabbath), but I think Blizzard was the most visible recording...

I'm hoping the conversation - debate - continues...


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:31 pm 
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CanuckRhoadsFan wrote:
Paul Wolfe wrote:
CanuckRhoadsFan wrote:
I think Randy was the first rock player to really, truly PIONEER metal guitar. I don't think it can be said enough that Randy's work was groundbreaking.


See, that's why I asked the question... I've heard this since 1983, but no one can say what he actually did that was "groundbreaking" - it wasn't the melding of classical and blues, it wasn't the metal genre, it wasn't even melding pop and metal - so what was groundbreaking about Randy?

I don't think anything was.

I think he was a talented guitar player who was involved writing and performing some very good songs. Maybe this is why he isn't the "household name" we loyal fans claim he should be.

This is in no way meant to be negative towards Randy Rhoads, I am truly trying to figure out his importance in the pantheon of great players.


I would even argue that thrash and speed metal, with some artists showing extreme precision, would not have come about, or at least progressed to the point it did in the amount of time it did without Randy's work.



I don't really agree with that statement. The bands that shaped the heavy metal and thrash metal scene of the 80's usually cite Iron Maiden, Zeppelin, Sabbath, Aerosmith and various NWOBHM bands as their influences. I do think tracks like I Don't Know, Over the Mountain and Steal Away the Night just to a name a few helped push things in the right direction. Just not on a level of shaping things.

The thing is that Randy didn't live long enough to have that significance like Hendrix or Eddie where you've got guitarists coming out of everywhere copying them. Had he lived I'm positive he'd be much more prominent with musicians and non musicians. That's a big reason why it's important to have these forums, music and book releases so that he can be appreciated. Hopefully we'll see a video documentary with incredible unseen footage. :P Seriously though...


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:35 pm 
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He was musically,technically,emotionally and visually great and on top of all that he was a nice guy without a big ego! Who else can you say that about? Even after somebody as great as Eddie came and raised the technical ability level of guitar playing, Randy came and raised the bar even higher. To this day who else has played so musically correct without sacrificing a ounce of emotion. Everything he ever played was so well thought out.

His historical significance is he was as close to perfection as anybody has ever seen in a guitarist in modern times. His approach to music was like the composers of the 1700-1800's. Thats why his music sounds so timeless. Triple tracking solos, parts in contrary motion, hamonics played as secret passage ways. Separate rhythms for his solos. Power Chords bounced off concrete walls. Countless tonal additions to build a musical cadence of sound. His classical middle section at 3:00 in this video is what it must have sounded like to live in the 1800's listening to other great guitar composers like Fransisco Tarrega? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iSpfT2YxaA

The tragedy of his untimely passing has taken its toll on his legacy. If you dont play guitar you usually wont know who Randy Rhoads was. Everything he ever recorded should be cherished and shared with the world. Not horded away and left to rot unappreciated....I wonder where his legacy will be in another 100 years? His music lives on and is imbedded into peoples consciousness all the time as they watch national sporting events all over the world where CrazyTrain is played all the time.

I think Ozzy said it best, "I dont think people will ever fully realize how great he really was." A real artist doesnt overplay he knows what to play when to play and when to not play too much. Other guitarists are not more technically proficient then Randy, we just never got to see Randys technically proficient side but we got a few glimpses of it. Like the Texas rehearsal footage from feb 82 or we hear about it from other people who heard him playing like that. (The Rods interview, others on tour with him, friends etc..) But really it all boils down to songwriting nomatter how good you are on guitar if you cant write a song or cant write material with others then you will never be remembered.

_________________
1756 Mozart~1956 Rhoads~2156 ??????


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:51 pm 
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Quote:
I personally think it was the melding of classical and metal.


I'd like to think that both Ritchie Blackmore and Uli Roth took in the classical
influence in rock/metal earlier and to a higher degree than Randy did. I'd even
put Michael Schenker in that category :)

Not saying that Randy didn't do a great job.
He just wasn't the first to use a classical influence in heavier music like people claim 8)


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:14 pm 
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Stiltzkin wrote:
Quote:
I personally think it was the melding of classical and metal.I'd like to think that both Ritchie Blackmore and Uli Roth took in the classical influence in rock/metal earlier and to a higher degree than Randy did. I'd even
put Michael Schenker in that category :)
Not saying that Randy didn't do a great job.
He just wasn't the first to use a classical influence in heavier music like people claim 8)




I respectifically disagree to a certain point.
Blackmore was earlier than Randy....no doubt.
Same with Roth And schenker.
But to say that "at higher degree" is ambiguous....and probably not accurate.
I say look at how popular Randy's music is...(example crazy train!)
Its played all over the place....its in commercials! Its the opening song for some Sports events!
Uli is more a cult thing to me....good player but certainly less mainstream than Ozzys music.
And I guess that's the ying & yang is Ozzy & Randy.
Due to the Osbourne NAME....Randys MUSIC...the music he wrote...riffs HE Had...and collaborated with Bob daisley...Is popular....Timeless.
That's popular early hard rock/metal music.
I say that Ozzy music is more popular than Deep Purple/Rainbow & Scorpions with Uli....same for michael schenker ..good player & randy liked his playing very much, but not Mainstream...not saying that's the Uber Bar to set but Randys got gold & platinum behind him!
Nobody has to point to "A" or "B" to say what Randy's "Historical Significance" IS.
It just IS!
He just seems to live on prob cuz Ozzy music is still popular!
Here we are having a discussions ( MANY) about a KID ,really , who was killed more than 30 yrs ago( a completely tragic loss for Randy's family & friends no doubt! And his legions of fans...myself included! but as much of a tragic loss for Music as a whole! who knows where HE was gonna take US next!...That's part of HIS teachings that will never be fulfilled unfortunately!...4 records documenting HIS music to study and dissect...no more!
Maybe his "Historical Significance" is more of a "Historical Legacy"....To inspire people to play and learn & study!.
He was my influence in that regard (early on) and still is! And still is to the many, many people who cite him as that Early influence to learn, play & excel!
Look at the Tichy concerts! Look who comes out for that!
And for those who need to HEAR certain BLANTANTLY OBVIOUS licks or phrasing that references or quotes Randy Rhoads...its all there!
the MOST OBVIOUS and BLATANT is ..
Mr. Scary! even Lynch Himself states that he is quoting Randy!
Listen to EARLY Kirk Hammet playing
Listen to Frank Hannon of Tesla!
Tracii Guns!
The guitar player for Britny Fox !
Sweep picking.......Randy was ONE of THE first people to use that!
Randys death is like a wound that never heals but you keep going on.
RIP Randy Rhoads


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:35 pm 
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randy never swept.he did what was called rake.one thing he was flawless at was alternate picking..had he lived i believe he would have laughed at the whole sweeping thing and would have sounded more like the way paul gilbert approaches that style.


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:19 am 
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Sorry, couldn't add all the quotes in here....wouldn't let me post with that many quotes!

Orion_Damage, I disagree, respectfully. Maiden, to a degree, started to pinpoint more precise playing later on in the 80's, but I don't feel like any of those bands had/have overly technical players at the guitar helm.

I think that while it might not get a lot of press publicly, I'll bet that if you were to ask any of the thrash/speed players if BOO and DOAM were influences on their playing, they would resoundingly agree. Randy, as a player, IMO, is one of those players that is well known to other guitar players, much similar to some lesser known bands being known to those that have gone on to greater success.

I do agree that the brevity of his "professional career" with Ozzy in the comparative "big time" hinders his potential influence on music, but I don't think there is any doubt that he DID have an effect on metal guitar. With only two Ozzy albums, he managed to help craft songs, solos, and guitar work that we're still talking about after all this time. The very fact that he played on these albums alone and they brought forth such memorable songs ensures that he had some significance in rock/metal.


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 Post subject: Re: What is Randy's "Historical Significance"??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:25 am 
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Stiltzkin wrote:
Quote:
I personally think it was the melding of classical and metal.


I'd like to think that both Ritchie Blackmore and Uli Roth took in the classical
influence in rock/metal earlier and to a higher degree than Randy did. I'd even
put Michael Schenker in that category :)

Not saying that Randy didn't do a great job.
He just wasn't the first to use a classical influence in heavier music like people claim 8)


I would agree that those guys dabbled, basically, with classical in metal, but Randy really used it a lot more, and brought the cross-pollination of the two genres to fruition to a much larger degree. Roth and Blackmore are amazing players, no doubt, but they didn't have the execution and style that Randy did. He did something unique, which is, in general terms, difficult to categorize.


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