Ultimate Rhoads

Okay, this has been discussed, but I finally took the time to look up a video that explains my point of view on the subject.

I maintain that Bob and Lee helped Randy with arranging his guitar parts - which is an indispensable part of the writing process.

Watch this video - especially starting at 1:12. It's about the writing of Enter Sandman and clearly shows the difference between what Kirk originally came up with and what ended up on the record after Lars input. Lars is not a guitar player, but his input was crucial in this respect.

I believe Bob Daisley and Lee Kerslake were responsible for helping Randy's "quantum leap" and, thus, deserve the praise they receive from the fans (oh, and they both are great players, that deserves a bit of respect, too, I guess )

If you hate the idea of another thread regarding Bob and Lee, be sure to flame me!

I don't think any true Ozzy or Randy fan would not give credit to Bob and Lee for their contributions to those albums. It only takes five minutes of research to unearth those facts.

However, I am not convinced that 'recognition' from the fans is the type of 'credit' Bob and Lee are looking for...

To Bob and Lee... what do you want the fans to do about your situation? Take around a hat?

Note too, that I never seen Tommy or Rudy take credit for Bob and Lee's work. In fact when Diary came out, I was already aware that Tommy and Rudy didn't play on it. Tommy Aldridge convinced Jet not to scrub Lee's drum tracks for both albums when he signed on. He said they were perfect.

A precursor of things to come...... 'hey Don, where is my cheque?'
- Lee Kerslake

Finally, what I never hear mentioned is whether or not Delores Rhoads is getting paid for her son's efforts. After 30 years on sales of about 10 million copies combined on those first two LPs, the Rhoads estate should be 'flush', even just based on performance and composer credits.

Judging by the Palladium footage, I would suggest that the Randy, Rudy and Tommy line-up was rushed into rehearsal and performances - lots of bloopers in that footage.

We hear a lot from Bob and Lee about the injustice served to them (and no, I don't think they were treated very well), but they obviously pissed someone off severely to get fired within weeks of a North American tour.

I will ask again... what happened?

Dude If you mean they said "hey man you can do better than that" well yeah maybe. I certainly can't imagine their input being much more than that. I really don't know why there is even speculation on this? Again Max Norman does not talk about input from other band members during the actual recording of the solos, and as a matter of fact he talks like it was just he and Randy in the studio while recording the guitars.

It's a whole can of worms that probably Max Norman, Rudy or Tommy would rather not get into at this point. This is a litigious age, and bitterness and acrimony can run rampant... It's just such a shame that the talent the original four had couldn't compensate for the personality clashes, and arguments over money and credit..

Those were early days for Ozzy and I think he and Sharon (and Don, Jet Records..) were just trying to stay above water, in the black somehow. Who knows how it all snowballed from it being a band called Blizzard Of Ozz and that subsequently becoming the name of a solo Ozzy album.

I'm still not comfortable with how 'Diary' still doesn't have the proper performance credits on it. No one will probably ever really know how it all went down between Sharon and Ozzy and Bob and Lee, but the pettiness of not giving Bob and Lee performance credits on 'Diary' still irks me.. They had three re-issues since the original to just say it already and give them credit for all to see..

But that's incongruous and not at all realistic, considering the history of Ozzy, Sharon, Bob and Lee. A lot of pride, ego and murkiness. Everyone was younger then, and I sense that maybe Ozzy and Sharon thought that there would be others who could do what Bob and Lee did. I guess we'll never really know what is going on with all of them. It's just wacky to me that -after coming back time and time again to collaborate together- Ozzy and Bob are still at loggerheads. I would never hold it against Sharon at all if she said one day, "Listen, I was wrong for messing with the original albums, and I know a lot has gone down between all of us, but let's all be adults here and sort this all out once and for all, and do as right by everyone as we all can". The same could be said of Bob, Lee or Ozzy attempting to say something of similar sentiment, a bit of humility. But, life's not always like that. The new remasters sound wonderful though. How much money, power and clout does anyone need before you begin to harness the more crazier aspects of it all? Eh, who knows. Sharon's father was a shark in the business.. Can't we all just get along, man? lol


Peace.

distortionplus wrote:Dude If you mean they said "hey man you can do better than that" well yeah maybe. I certainly can't imagine their input being much more than that. I really don't know why there is even speculation on this? Again Max Norman does not talk about input from other band members during the actual recording of the solos, and as a matter of fact he talks like it was just he and Randy in the studio while recording the guitars.

I was referring to writing the songs, not recording them. So, I think you missed my point. I believe Bob and Lee helped Randy arrange guitar parts in the writing process... listen to the Suicide Solution demo... they removed the No Bone Movies part and made that into it's own song. That's what i was referring to.

As for what Max has said, it's always been in print and that is easily edited... ever seen an interview where someone asked Max about Bob? The only Max Norman interviews I've seen were about Randy, so of course he only talks about Randy.

shred1 wrote:I don't think any true Ozzy or Randy fan would not give credit to Bob and Lee for their contributions to those albums. It only takes five minutes of research to unearth those facts.

Actually there have been ample comments on this board that come right out and say Randy did everything (even telling Lee how to play). It's an ongoing thing here.

I do agree that recognition of the fans is not the type of recognition they are looking for.

I don't blame Lee or Bob asking Don "hey dude, where's my check??!!"

How many of you (on this message board) would keep working for your employer if they were dodging your pay??

Exactly...

Perhaps Bob and Lee are feeling the blow back of their own whining. Familiarity often breeds contempt.
They are singing to the choir taking their dissent to the public.
I have purchased both albums on vinyl, on cassette and CD (twice) over the years.
I am sure I am not the only one. That is all the 'credit' I am willing to give Bob and Lee.

This is a point of contention with me. Lee & Bob had as much 'music biz' experience as Ozzy did. So how did they get fleeced so bad?

And just what can Bob reveal in his book that he hasn't already in interviews over the years, without risking going back to court with the Osbournes?

You don't get fired for nothing... and if you go back to the source, you are probably asking for more of the same.

Paul Wolfe wrote:

distortionplus wrote:Dude If you mean they said "hey man you can do better than that" well yeah maybe. I certainly can't imagine their input being much more than that. I really don't know why there is even speculation on this? Again Max Norman does not talk about input from other band members during the actual recording of the solos, and as a matter of fact he talks like it was just he and Randy in the studio while recording the guitars.

I was referring to writing the songs, not recording them. So, I think you missed my point. I believe Bob and Lee helped Randy arrange guitar parts in the writing process... listen to the Suicide Solution demo... they removed the No Bone Movies part and made that into it's own song. That's what i was referring to.

I agree with this logic toally. I'm sure anybody who's ever been in a band writing original music has experienced this. As a guitar player, you come up with a riff, and the drummer's beat changes it slightly... or another band member sugguests you play a riff a bit differently... the singer makes suggestions so the part better fits his vocal phrasing, etc... Some people around here seem to think Randy was the be all end all when it comes to the brilliance of the first two records. They are what they are due to the input of all four musicians. I would go so far as to say Bob Daisley has at least half responsible, if not more. Randy was a great talent no doubt, but talent can only get you so far. Sometimes you need the input of a producer or another set of ears to improve your material to get to the next step.

Also, sounds like Randy DID play along with late checks etc., 'hoping' to get it all back once all the advances to Jet were repaid.
I am referring to Grover Jackson's comments here.

It is fact that Rhoads was looking for a way out as early as late 1981....

I sure hope he and his estate got paid.... in full.

shred1 wrote:
I sure hope he and his estate got paid.... in full.

I'm almost positive Randy got the same contract as Bob and Lee. It really makes no sense why you would hope Randy got paid in full, when you don't give a rip about Bob and Lee's checks.

And they didn't get fired for nothing, they got fired for wanting what was due to them.

Randy was a wide-eyed 21 year old kid.
Lee was in Heep for years. Daisley was a Jet artist BEFORE Ozzy was.

I can see how Randy would get ripped off. I can't say the same about the rhythm section.

And we don't know why they were fired, really. We can speculate.

Paul Wolfe wrote:Okay, this has been discussed, but I finally took the time to look up a video that explains my point of view on the subject.

I maintain that Bob and Lee helped Randy with arranging his guitar parts - which is an indispensable part of the writing process.

Watch this video - especially starting at 1:12. It's about the writing of Enter Sandman and clearly shows the difference between what Kirk originally came up with and what ended up on the record after Lars input. Lars is not a guitar player, but his input was crucial in this respect.

I believe Bob Daisley and Lee Kerslake were responsible for helping Randy's "quantum leap" and, thus, deserve the praise they receive from the fans (oh, and they both are great players, that deserves a bit of respect, too, I guess )

If you hate the idea of another thread regarding Bob and Lee, be sure to flame me!

great way of showing things

Pretty sure we know since BOTH the Osbournes AND Bob and Lee have said what happened.

Ozzy wanted to fire Lee and get Tommy Aldridge in his place, Bob didn't think it was right (Don't fix what ain't broke). The only thing that isn't completely clear is before the Palladium gig. It's been said that Bob was worried about Ozzy's voice, and it's also been said that Bob and Lee wanted double paychecks for doing a double gig (Which is fair, you don't work two shifts at work without getting payed extra)

Was it Sharon or Ozzy who wanted to fire Lee? Not sure. Why? Not sure. He put a stellar performance in on both albums.
Did Randy ask for two checks for the Palladium? Not sure.
Who slip sheeted the whole thing from being the Blizzard Of Ozz to Ozzy Osbourne? Not sure.
Was it Ozzy or Sharon who edited them off the re-issues? Not sure.
What was Bob's arrangement for working on Bark At The Moon? Not sure.
What was the arrangement that reportedly fixed the credits issue on Diary that didn't happen? Not sure.

Will an airing of the details in public change ANYTHING or merely fuel the feud? - say that fast!

There are three sides to just these points. One thing is for sure.
Whatever 'happened' puts a serious damper on fans seeing and hearing more Rhoads material.

I will say it again, Bob and Lee are great players, and deserve credit. I can't change that as a fan.

History has shown that the 'general public' was/is most interested in just two people in that band, Ozzy and Randy.
Not an opinion.

Cryptic Night wrote:Pretty sure we know since BOTH the Osbournes AND Bob and Lee have said what happened.

Ozzy wanted to fire Lee and get Tommy Aldridge in his place, Bob didn't think it was right (Don't fix what ain't broke). The only thing that isn't completely clear is before the Palladium gig. It's been said that Bob was worried about Ozzy's voice, and it's also been said that Bob and Lee wanted double paychecks for doing a double gig (Which is fair, you don't work two shifts at work without getting payed extra)

I honestly think they used this excuse as a final straw to get shot of Bob & Lee. Bob was switched onto the way Jet would hold back on money so he stood his ground and wanted the extra payment. It was Ozzy who suggested NOT doing the extra show as he was worried his voice would go. He wanted Bob and Lee to back him up and refuse to do the gig. I have always believed that the image of the band was a major issue and the band line up had to change. I asked Dave Tangye what was the feeling like at the time when they got fired.
Q. During your Blizzard period with Ozzy what was the feeling when you found out Bob Daisley and Lee Kerslake had been fired from the band. Could you give me an insight of how the crew and other band members felt about this. I understand that you are still friends with Bob Daisley and keep in touch ?.

DAVE TANGYE:
I was really saddened at the time to find out that Bob Daisley & Lee Kerslake were deemed surplus to requirements, when the Blizzard hit the United States leg of that tour. My understanding and observation at that time was that the original line up, did not suit the youthful image the band management required to take out on the road. This was the most important tour of Ozzy Osbournes whole career.
I am in touch with Bob Daisley on a regular basis, and we do exchange interesting emails. Bob is a fantastic musician, and a great songwriter. I really do like his work.