????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Talk about musical equipment, guitars, drums, bass, synths anything.

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Paul Wolfe
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Re: ????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Post by Paul Wolfe »

Whipper wrote:
As for your Japanese Jackson... is it the guitar itself (the parts made of wood) or the electric parts that make it sound like a toy?
How the hell would I know, unless maybe I strip them down and analyze the wood and try swapping all high end components onto the cheap model, etc., etc.! I would imagine it's a culmination of everything. I hear a lot more people claim they find a Gibson LP to be much better than an Epiphone, than people claiming there's no difference or the opposite.
You would know if the wooden guitar is built well or not buy simply looking at the details. If it's the sound coming from the pickups then it's the electric parts that are inferior... play them both unplugged and see if one feels cheap compared to the other.

As for your other comments, I'll settle on agreeing to disagree, neither of us will change the others mind.
Stiltzkin
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Re: ????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Post by Stiltzkin »

just out of curiosity, how would you rate Brian Mays 'Red Special'?
Considering how it was made and what parts were used... 8)
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Whipper
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Re: ????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Post by Whipper »

Paul Wolfe wrote:You would know if the wooden guitar is built well or not buy simply looking at the details. If it's the sound coming from the pickups then it's the electric parts that are inferior... play them both unplugged and see if one feels cheap compared to the other.
For christ's sake, you were referring to the wood before, now you've twisted it around to having referred to the craftsmanship (which is inferior) of the build. And yes, it sounds inferior in comparison unplugged. It also sounds inferior plugged in. It also feels inferior (I already told you that in my original post). It also looks inferior.
As for your other comments, I'll settle on agreeing to disagree, neither of us will change the others mind.
Translation: I realize my boycott rant was bizarre and Fender remark completely false, and have no actual facts to back up my argument, so like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand, I'll just ignore your facts and remain in the right. Ok, you win, you're right. All the people who buy high end guitars are idiots wasting their money, because they could've had a totally equal guitar for a few hundred bucks instead.
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dannyahansen
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Re: ????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Post by dannyahansen »

Stiltzkin wrote:just out of curiosity, how would you rate Brian Mays 'Red Special'?
Considering how it was made and what parts were used... 8)
I have heard they sound amazing. I think they look really cheap and I have never played one. I bet they are fine guitars for what they are.
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dannyahansen
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Re: ????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Post by dannyahansen »

Paul Wolfe wrote:
As for your other comments, I'll settle on agreeing to disagree, neither of us will change the others mind.
This may or may not be true, but I think having an open debate and talking about the difference is import and one can benefit and learn new things from such a debate. Not that this needed to be a debate but it has turned into one now.

Did you read my posts? I would be curious on what you thought about what I wrote.
Thanks man.

BTW, I have not been very active on these boards much but I like some of the new threads and am trying to have conversations instead of arguments. I think that is what ruined these boards years ago was certain posters trying to drum up controversies. Good to see some good debates and conversations.
Stiltzkin
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Re: ????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Post by Stiltzkin »

dannyahansen wrote:
Stiltzkin wrote:just out of curiosity, how would you rate Brian Mays 'Red Special'?
Considering how it was made and what parts were used... 8)
I have heard they sound amazing. I think they look really cheap and I have never played one. I bet they are fine guitars for what they are.
I meant the original ;)
just goes to show that you don't need a several thousand dollar guitar to sound good.
Brians original was built from scraps and leftovers 8)
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Whipper
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Re: ????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Post by Whipper »

Well, tell Brian to send it over for me to check it over and I'll get back to you. Seriously, we're supposed to rate a guitar based on some distant photos and album recordings? Just because the wood used came from a fireplace mantel, doesn't mean it was shitty wood. High quality woods are often used in such applications, and the wood in question was mahogany. Maybe Brian and his dad were excellent craftsman, who knows? He is highly intelligent and talented, so it's feasible. His father was a genius electrical engineer and they spent 18 months building it. How does it feel? Maybe most of us would find that it feels terrible, and would never buy it for even a few hundred dollars, who knows. The sound? Well, it's Brian May playing it, I think he could make a pine plank with strings nailed on it sound good!
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Stiltzkin
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Re: ????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Post by Stiltzkin »

Whipper wrote:and the wood in question was mahogany.
a small piece of the guitar yes.
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Whipper
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Re: ????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Post by Whipper »

Stiltzkin wrote:
Whipper wrote:and the wood in question was mahogany.
a small piece of the guitar yes.
Oh, well that changes everything! :roll:

I was thrown off by the mahogany veneer on the body, which turns out is chambered oak, as well as the fingerboard. While not commonly used guitarmaking, it does get used for solid body electrics and is certainly not a shitty wood. It has the same density as mahogany, so there's no reason why it couldn't be used.
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Whipper
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Re: ????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Post by Whipper »

Paul Wolfe wrote:
Whipper wrote:Ok, you win, you're right. All the people who buy high end guitars are idiots wasting their money, because they could've had a totally equal guitar for a few hundred bucks instead.
Did I say that? Hmmm. You misunderstood everything I said and became argumentative for no reason.
Oh for fuck sakes, how is this any different from how you took my pointing out the significant difference in labor cost between Asian and American factories as being a major contributor to the product price difference as opposed to your accusation of price gouging, and twisted it into claiming I was insinuating that we should have an issue with underpaid Asian workers?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!! I've never seen anyone so fond of twisting shit around before! :roll:
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Paul Wolfe
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Re: ????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Post by Paul Wolfe »

Whipper wrote:Well, it's Brian May playing it, I think he could make a pine plank with strings nailed on it sound good!

Made me think of Billy Gibbons. The story is that after visiting the late Muddy Waters birthplace on Stovalls plantation in Mississippi, he took a plank of wood from the cabin that Waters was raised in and had it made into a guitar.

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rice_pudding
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Re: ????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Post by rice_pudding »

I pretty much stick to the diagram below on these matters.

As for the OP. Gibson and Epiphone pretty much make the same guitars, but at different price points. Epiphone generally aspire to use the exact same construction specs (body wood, scale length, neck joint etc) as Gibson, but are doing it with cheaper materials, cheaper staff and possibly less time. The difference in the quality of all this can vary wildly, but for sure an off the shelf Gibson does sound and play a bit, and in some cases, a lot better than an Epiphone. But that doesn't necessarily mean the Gibson represents good value for money.

Comparing Japanese/American Jacksons is a different matter. As far as I am aware, the bulk of Jacksons production line is in Japan and the high end stuff is made in USA. In that case the aspiration of the company itself, is that the better models be made at home, not abroad. Gibson/Epiphone, may be owned by the same group, but they are independent, and to an extent rivals at different price points, and they each have their own distinction between a mass produced standard model and a higher quality model. In simple terms Gibson build both the SG standard and 61'VOS in the US, while Jackson produce the RR5 in large quantities in Japan, while the more exclusive RR1 is US.

In the broader terms of this debate, there is no doubting that Gibson and Fender etc. build good guitars, my main agro is that they are simply overpriced regardless. Looking at the high end; a Custom shop V.O.S 1960 Les Paul costs £4400. I mean fucking hell, are they serious. And ultimately the wood is what the factory has ordered, the cream no doubt, but it's still picked from a bulk order, and they are all built to the same spec, what if the neck isn't quite what you want?

I know a guy who makes very nice guitars for £3000, he picks the wood from the supplier himself and hand builds the thing over 9 months, he shapes the neck how the customer wants it, and has the pickups custom wound to match the quality of the wood. etc. etc. Whats better in this case? Considering the Gibson comes of a production line (granted a more exclusive one) and the other is custom made, where are the profit margins? :wink: (smug tosser wink sorry!)

The standard priced models suffer the same fate. While I'm dubious of modern Gibsons, Fender are pretty impressive. I went looking for a fender but I came home with a Korean guitar that was half the price. The thing is, some companies take pride in their Asian manufacturing. JHS have wood imported from Canada and north America to make their cheaper Vintage Advanced series. And trust me they sound fantastic. Fret King use the exact same wood and hardware in both their UK and Korean factories. The Korean factory is described as a 'workshop environment', they basically admit all you pay for with a UK build is more time put into the instrument.

Rob
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dannyahansen
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Re: ????????????????GUITARS????????????????????

Post by dannyahansen »

Interesting perspective. I just want to add that I think that Fender and Gibson are both over priced. I also think that Jackson is too. I just want to reemphasize that that is the reason I generally would buy used or buy on ebay. You just need to be really familiar with what you are buying before you do ebay. You can find great stuff for a lot less than buying new.

I am a huge fan of buying from builders like the one described above. You can get amazing things for less that is just as good and a lot of times better than the big name brands. I have owned several guitars from off builders like GMW, Noland Guitars, and Jackal.
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